Raid progression

[jimmy6154]

Something that crossed my mind is the issue of Raid progression.

In a lot of games defeating one instance leads to the opening of another.
So being able to track that progession would be sweet. Some games do it, some game don't.

Having an easy way for guilds to manage and report on this would be helpful. See who is keyed and who is not. Who can enter a zone and who can not.

[Moloch]

I'm not a big fan of keying. In reality it's most often nothing more than a timesink. It artificially divides guilds by /played.

I have no issue with:

1. guilds as a whole having to 'open' an instance as a shared endeavour through some mechanic. But I believe that instances should only be limited by level (and I'm also a fan of having a maximum entry level).

2. With instances following one another in a sequence - as long as one instance isn't a deliberate C&*! block to slow progression.

3. With encounters or instances being a gear/skill check.

[Lord Aries]

I hate instances =)

[reddo]

I liked instances, honestly. It tested my mettle.

What are raids in general? How are they played out? Who takes part in them?

These are some questions relevant to this topic. In my mind, raids are battles of large proportions for the conquest of territory, power, or wealth. They are played out with numerous players attacking the enemy legion with swords, axes, sticks, fish, etc. There is this paradigm among MMO's that a raid is Player group A attacking Player group B for area C. Now that's fine and all, but what about the mobs? I don't mean players going into a dark bloodied up cave to take a stab at the neighborhood fish lady. What I mean is mobs attacking the players. Yea, I said it. Mobs going right into a town to try and beat the living crap out of the citizens. I've seen two MMO's to do this so far. Priston Tale did this with Navisko, with the citizens turning into monsters at night. I've also seen this with Tabula Rasa. But with both, I felt as if I didn't gain as much as I expected. Sure I got my normal loot and my NPCs back, but these town raids could have gone on longer. So what is my main point?


First, get mobs to attack a town. Whatever town is closest to Dungeon D. Mobs die, and players save the day. But that's not all. Now, for a limited time, they have access to Dungeon D to fight the sunnuvagun that set the trolls at them in the first place. The raid can be an instance or part of the entire realm, it depends on how epic you want it to feel like. Another piece of the realm means the mobs ought to be prepared for many, many, many players with very sharp sticks. Instancing means strategy should influence a lot of the group's decisions, rather than brute strength.


Did I just write this much? :O

[jimmy6154]

All great post.

As far as a mob attacking a city, I think that would be more annoying then anything. At the end of WoW beta the GM's attacked the Mmjor cities with Huge Demons. It was a huge feast of lag and unorganized idiots trying to repave the floor with their bones. Maybe if it was something that happened more often, then it might improve. Though I would get real tired of scanning a AH only to have my guy killed out of the blue from an attacking mod.

My thoughts on this post were more of ways for guilds (if there are guilds) or individuals to manage their progression or what ever is around though out the game.

Whether thats though instances or boss kills or keys. An easy visual way to look at what you have done when faced with moving forward into the end game.


Also this might bleed over into guild ranking and player ranking. There are alot of websites that track boss kills and every server WoW forum page you can find a post of someone who is tracking the server guild kill progression. Something similar along these lines would be sweet.


On the topic of server progression, I love and hate that. because if you miss it, your screwed. On the later side, the greatness of the events are so much fun. Example was the AQ gates opening in WoW or killing the sleeper in EQ. These events were so much fun. One thing I hated in early EQ was the world contested (non-instance) style. It really sucked being on a server that had a guild that was "bad" and had such disregard for when another guild was in place to take down a boss. WoW brought in instances which and instance resets which at least made it so you could schedule a weeks worth of raiding.

I always love the beginnings of a game. Running MC and BRD for the first times was awesome. Killing Vox and Nag's was some of the best times in MMOPRG history. Now you can kill these "EPIC" dragons with one group. Thats disgusting IMO.

I'm getting a bit off-topic now, but the main reason for this was to talk about progression (if there is some type of progression) reporting and others ideas.

[Cactus]

Depending on various playstyles, many might disagree with me here and hate me for it :P but here it goes.

I personally feel that FFXI has had the most satisfactory instancing/progressive raids. Although the game does cater more to the hardcore, it gave you a bigger sense of accomplishment while bringing you closer to the game and your character. I loved finding groups to take a stab at the main missions to unlock more of the story line and be able to get to the ''raiding'' zones (Sky and Sea, etc). Dynamis and such were also very enjoyable because it took a skilled team and effort and know how to get to the end. You had to actually play and put effort into the game to be able to take part in the most fun areas.

I understand that many people may feel that in doing something like that it would scare some away but that just an personal preference of mine.

Sorry that i digressed there and went more into storyline type raids but i agree with reddo about towns being attacked. I really enjoy seeing actual events play out in the world like in TR. It was pretty cool watching actual wars go on between the npcs and that you were able to jump into the middle of it but the game left it a bit lacking.

[Valkazon]

Well my view is that if it's a guild raid/instance then it should be unrestricted access to all in that guild. One of my pet hates is being in a guild and hardly ever getting to group with guildies because they are higher lvl (or vice versa).
I know some games counter this by allowing toons to temporarily increase/decrease their lvl etc, but lets get real here. See the thread about 'Why guns?' - we talked there about damage output etc. Why shouldn't all levels be allowed to join in and have fun together, that's one of the main reasons of a guild anyway.

I know there's lots more to be said there about wpn lvls etc but thats another post.

[jimmy6154]

Well my view is that if it's a guild raid/instance then it should be unrestricted access to all in that guild. One of my pet hates is being in a guild and hardly ever getting to group with guildies because they are higher lvl (or vice versa).
I know some games counter this by allowing toons to temporarily increase/decrease their lvl etc, but lets get real here. See the thread about 'Why guns?' - we talked there about damage output etc. Why shouldn't all levels be allowed to join in and have fun together, that's one of the main reasons of a guild anyway.

I know there's lots more to be said there about wpn lvls etc but thats another post.

I think that games don't allow higher levels to group with lower level because of the higher levels ability to kill a monster that gives more experience that then would give the lower level an experience hit not inline with what they could kill while grouping with someone more their level. I believe this is called power leveling.

IMO with people who a new to the game/guild should have to do a bit of work to get to a point were they can raid with a guild or the higher ups. It teaches people how to act in a raid environment. There is a precision to it that people need to learn. Like listening to the raid leader. Not moving when told to not move...etc. All things learned while progressing in the game. I joined a guild a long long time ago that made you complete quest. Which was kind of a pain but it weeded out the dead beats that just wanted to be associated with the guild. A quest was something like, get the guild 1000 spider silks or something like that. Easy but not very fun. It proved to the guild that you were dedicated enough to do what it took to be a part of the team.

[Nurvus]

IMO with people who a new to the game/guild should have to do a bit of work to get to a point were they can raid with a guild or the higher ups. It teaches people how to act in a raid environment. There is a precision to it that people need to learn. Like listening to the raid leader. Not moving when told to not move...etc. All things learned while progressing in the game. I joined a guild a long long time ago that made you complete quest. Which was kind of a pain but it weeded out the dead beats that just wanted to be associated with the guild. A quest was something like, get the guild 1000 spider silks or something like that. Easy but not very fun. It proved to the guild that you were dedicated enough to do what it took to be a part of the team.

A nice theory. But doesn't work.
The learning curve is important, but how everyone plays is always their own choice.

Listening to a raid leader and learning to do what you're told?
You don't learn that. You're either into it or you're not.

And level does not change the quality of learning.
You can learn strategy from someone your level or 100 levels ahead.

Legitimately, one could say that it takes time to get acquainted to the controls of the game.
Anymore than that is pure speculation of yours regarding individual players.

The problem is usually in the player community, not game design.

[jimmy6154]

A nice theory. But doesn't work.
The learning curve is important, but how everyone plays is always their own choice.

Listening to a raid leader and learning to do what you're told?
You don't learn that. You're either into it or you're not.

And level does not change the quality of learning.
You can learn strategy from someone your level or 100 levels ahead.

Legitimately, one could say that it takes time to get acquainted to the controls of the game.
Anymore than that is pure speculation of yours regarding individual players.

The problem is usually in the player community, not game design.



great points. I guess what I was more so trying to say was that being mature in a game takes time. Someone can't be raid ready with out learning. Whether that is learned from guild members or progression though the game. A rogues ability to manage his agro for example. All learned though the progression of their levels. You made a great point to, either the person is into it or they are not. For me I would rather have the people who are into it and know their skills. Nothing worse then corpse run after corpse run due to an inexperienced player.

[Nurvus]

From the time I played in WoW and Guild Wars, I have always looked beyond the people's levels.
The same happened from some people regarding me.

I was playing as a level 18 and some high levels say I was a good player. (I don't twink - hate it)

I tanked a lv68 dungeon with a lv68 non-tank (retribution paladin) and they said that was the best tanking they'd seen...

On the other hand, some other people also disliked the way I played just because it was different from them, so they left party, and eventually we'd get it going.

So, in the end, allowing yourself to know players, inspite their initial appearance (level, gear), is what lets you know if someone is good to raid with or not.

Of all my time playing, and seeing people putting Tanks in a god-like standard, while tanks bitching about everything, I eventually decided to make a Warrior tank myself, and when I got to lv59, tanking all dungeons at the minimum level I can join queue, I realized how bad some tanks are, and how good others are.
Some players don't get around with real teamwork.
I was proud to - at the lowest queueable level - withstand and keep near me 2 full groups of elite beasts from a dungeon, then tanking a boss 3 or 4 levels above me, and in the end the healer tells me he will come heal me whenever I need. xD


In the end, the mentality affects the party play... deeply...

Some people like teamplay, some just like numbers and critting and "pew pew I'm better than you!".
The different mentalities help build and destroy raid groups in any game.
It's uncontainable... nothing the designers can do about it... nothing that the "learning" can help with.

The best the designers could do about it is a way to analyse a player's performance in group/raid - in an immersive way, something regarding Military standards - and assign a "grade" to that player, but in a way he can work his way up or down with every grouping.

[jimmy6154]

so true so true.

People who are skilled shine through quickly and their ability's are noticed. Especially in the tank position.

[Nurvus]

Another thing that destroys teamplay is the fact that some people only see their way of doing things, and anything else is considered rubbish.

A simple and frequent example of this is optimal raid/instance configurations.

When a group/raid leader knows that a certain setup works, ideas that go against it are automatically shot down.
That leader often doesn't care about anything else than getting that Setup.

That's why Retribution paladins, and some other builds are shunned... (or at least were for quite some time).

That narrow-minded thinking destroys alot of gameplay throughout games.

[Rauko]

Thinking that a player must reach a higher level before being "disciplined" enough to raid it is just silly.

You are either disciplined or you're not.

I've never played WoW, but you drop me in on a capped character and explain my class's important skills and role and give me a good leader to listen to and I am pretty sure I will do at least average, probably better.

Don't force a player to "prove" themselves by levels please. Let their actual performance and ability speak for them.
That said, don't cap out instances too much.

The ideal way would be to have some sort of...total group level max. Where no group can enter if all their levels combined are higher or lower than X or Y levels.

This way a smaller group with a couple high levels to help can do it, or larger group of low levels with just a couple high levels could do it. But it also stops full groups of high levels from coming in and destroying it.

But it would be very hard to balance this and settle on that X and Y. I think it would work well if you could though, just make sure you give it some padding. I'd rather it be a large window than a small one.

[Valkazon]

I think that games don't allow higher levels to group with lower level because of the higher levels ability to kill a monster that gives more experience that then would give the lower level an experience hit not inline with what they could kill while grouping with someone more their level. I believe this is called power leveling.

Sure is but that is why you have things like xp caps and item degredation if high lvl items are used by people that are too low for them.

[jimmy6154]

I thought I would post this little snip it of an Onyxia raid...

Its quite funny I think but does have a lot of bad language so if that offends you , don't listen.


This is the top contender for the bad raid....


Check it here (http://www.undyingcouncil.com/archieve_folder/misc/ony_wipe.mp3)

[Moloch]

This way a smaller group with a couple high levels to help can do it, or larger group of low levels with just a couple high levels could do it.

Unfortunately can't see it working.

If high levels can do, then it will be farmed or used for excessive level gaining through twinking. Any form of AoE will massacre low levels.

[MESS14H]

There seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread from what ive read so far. Correct me if im wrong but as far as im aware this isnt sopose to be a level based game. I thought it was soposed to be a skill based game simular to UO where you have to spend time working on your skills for them to be effective atall. for instance player x can pick up a rusty knife and throw it about a bit and is sufficient in combatting a sewer rat that has def skill 1 wich improves their Dagger skill by 1 making it 2 therefor player x becoumes more proficient at combating a misjevios squirel wich has def skill 2 wich would still present a problem to Player Z a who still has skill 1 with all sword weapons wich has been given a katana by his mate with skill 300. Allthough the weapon in the hands of the player with 300 skill is quite devistating player z cant swing it to hit a lame turtle thats dieing of old age and chained to a lamp post. allthough the player with 300 skill can stick around helping out player z while the squiral chws chunks out of him he can maybe practice his healing and resorection skill wich maybe would give him some sort of title or status bonus. i.e. Defender of the young and needy. Prolly something a deva would aspire too maybe I dunno. There needs to be incentives for more advanced players to take the time out of their daily dungeon grind and come down n help the little people once n a while other than filling that elusive healer or tank spot in a raid with new blood.

[amz181]

There seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread from what ive read so far. Correct me if im wrong but as far as im aware this isnt sopose to be a level based game. I thought it was soposed to be a skill based game simular to UO where you have to spend time working on your skills for them to be effective atall. for instance player x can pick up a rusty knife and throw it about a bit and is sufficient in combatting a sewer rat that has def skill 1 wich improves their Dagger skill by 1 making it 2 therefor player x becoumes more proficient at combating a misjevios squirel wich has def skill 2 wich would still present a problem to Player Z a who still has skill 1 with all sword weapons wich has been given a katana by his mate with skill 300. Allthough the weapon in the hands of the player with 300 skill is quite devistating player z cant swing it to hit a lame turtle thats dieing of old age and chained to a lamp post. allthough the player with 300 skill can stick around helping out player z while the squiral chws chunks out of him he can maybe practice his healing and resorection skill wich maybe would give him some sort of title or status bonus. i.e. Defender of the young and needy. Prolly something a deva would aspire too maybe I dunno. There needs to be incentives for more advanced players to take the time out of their daily dungeon grind and come down n help the little people once n a while other than filling that elusive healer or tank spot in a raid with new blood.
A tip for the future.

Use paragraphs...

* and bullet points

When you have something complex like that you need it in segment, i had to read that several times lolz.

I thought myself that this game would have levels, ive never read anything that indicates otherwise.

Welcome btw ;)

[MESS14H]

Sorry about that, ended up editing that post a few times and it got a bit long winded
anyway it says on the main page under Info\quick facts
" Charecter customization and SKILL-BASED gameplay provides players a choice of gaming style, charecters,and charecter class. Using our SKILL-BASED SYSTEM of gameplay, players may increase a specific statistic such as dexterity, strength, or speed to build a unique charecter "

[Avacon]

don't worry MESS14H we all on here sooner or later do get long winded. its alot to read but most of it is very informative.