Equipment vs Appearance

[Nurvus]

There are usually 2 things we want:

1 - Variety in gear, so that not everyone necessarily wants to wear the same peice of equipment, within a certain "class".
2 - Visual coherence.

Those 2 are constantly in conflict.
WoW tried to fix that by making armor go by "tiers", and creating sets of equipment that are all of a certain superior quality to make you want to wear them.

But the thing is, you are meant to want nothing else. Every "Fury Warrior" goes for the same stuff.
And if you get something else, it doesn't really fit the visual theme.

So either
a) a crafter can change the appearance of an item
or
b) you can create a "visual" aspect for you, despite the specific armor you are wearing, but limited to the type (light, heavy, etc - so you can't go and design a robe for you while actually wearing fullplate)

Both a) and b) can have several limits so that you can't go and put the best looking aspect on the weakest armor.

Materials of wich an armor is made (example Mithril, Damascus, etc) would likely apply their texture to wichever shape you give the armor. So the quality of the gear would be apparent.

The option b) I think is implemented somewhat similarly in LotR.

I honestly prefer a).
Any thoughts on this?

[Kaldmar]

I like the idea of option A. Maybe while he is putting the armor together he can put more components on it, place them differently, and customize it like that. And if someone has specific requests he can always ask the crafter to make them. Maybe also have certain components have different effects.

[Nurvus]

Together with both a Salvage and Research system, it can be made so you cannot alter the aspect of a piece of equipment. You must craft it with the appearance you want.

Salvage lets people destroy an item and make use of the salvaged raw materials.

Research would allow a crafter to study an item to learn how to craft it both in performance and visual, yet independently.

So you could go and grab that best armor of the game, that you think looks really awful, dismantle it, learn how to do it, fetch some extra needed items (Salvaging unlikely gives back 100% of the items needed to remake the item) and remake it with a cool visual.

[Rauko]

So basically...all crafted items would take two "recipes"
One for its stats, and another for its appearance. Lets call them the Inner and Outer, respectively.

If you have the craft skill required you learn a "one use inner recipe" of any item you have and dismantle.
And then you would need to have several different Outer options that you unlock more and more of as you learn your trade (perhaps cooler looking Outer recipes as rewards)
Then you remake your armor by combining the two, the Inner one use that you learned when you dismantled it with a new Outer look.

And then for creating original items you'd have to get Inner recipes in different ways. Generic ones for sale or on drops and harder, better ones that are maybe one use that are harder to find or are rewards.

[Nurvus]

If you have the craft skill required you learn a "one use inner recipe" of any item you have and dismantle.Not one use only.
Let's call them Plans and Designs.
When you learn a Plan or Design you can make as many items as you want with them.

Ofcourse, a Platemail design is only used with Platemail.
Designs can be given several restrictions, like available materials (mithril, orichalcum, damascus, etc)

An example of where this rewards players the most, is when you want your character to have a certain visual style, and you get that Hellsteel Fiendplate that you needed... but it doesn't fit your visual theme at all...

So you dismantle the armor, learn how to craft it (Plans & Design), and craft the same Plan with the Design you want.

[jimmy6154]

there is also the aspect of having something that no one else has. Or a look that no one else has. Doing this visually with epic items has been the trend in the past. This makes it hard to do as a crafter. Most MMO's want you to acquire the best gear through killing a hard to get to boss. Most crafter sell for profit and giving them the ability to make epic items defeats the purpose of them being epic being my opinion.

You will always get the visual looking the same as others with different stats, its easier for the dev's to change a name and a few stats the the graphics themselves.

[Nurvus]

Well, there are epic, and epic items.
But nevertheless, the way you become able to craft them may be limited to dismantling gear dropped by those very bosses, and learning how to craft it with a different look.
There is absolutely nothing in that that removes the feel of reward of conquering such challenging.
-----------
I'm not implying there will be any unattractive items.
I'm just implying players may grow fond of a certain style, and giving them the option to eventually get their favorite style would be lovely.

[Rauko]

Yea, but I was thinking for special equipment...you can't just let them make unlimited copies of it 0.o Cause they could go and sell them and now you have a bunch of copies for sale that are just as good as the original that others had to work for. Thats just not right.
For simple equipment, ok, but for big storyline quest rewards? No, you should only have it if you worked for it. You could easily make sense of this because whatever it is that makes the equipment extra special cannot be reproduced, you can only disassemble it and then reassemble it around that one special thing, but you can't get that special thing anywhere else.
Perhaps thats a good compromise? But don't let them create unlimited copies of epic equipment...

[jimmy6154]

I would assume epic type items would be a no drop/bind on equiped type deal.

[Nurvus]

What if they are?
There's nothing against one being able to let a crafter dismantle the item to get salvaged materials, learn the plans and the design.

It can easily be done in a way similar to Enchanting in WoW - In something similar to the Trade Window "Will Not Be Traded" slot.

But still, I think there's no need for items to be soulbound/undroppable.

Instead, partially like in Guild Wars, you could fit/customize the item for you, and from then on you get slightly improved performance with that item; it cannot be fit/customized for anyone else; and anyone else who tries to equip it only gets normal performance out of it.

[a chewy rock]

I thought that if you customized an item to fit yourself in Guild Wars that it was no longer usable by another player. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it being. And I played Guild Wars like crazy before all the expansions.

I do agree about the soulbound items. Someone should be able to use it even if it's soulbound or fitted to another player; however, they won't receive any bonuses from it like if it were suited to their character.

[jimmy6154]

so theoretically bosses would drop some type of bonus items? Or maybe being able to combine your item with a greater item to get its essence would be cool.

[Nurvus]

I thought that if you customized an item to fit yourself in Guild Wars that it was no longer usable by another player. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it being. And I played Guild Wars like crazy before all the expansions.

That's why I said "partially like in Guild Wars".

Bosses do not need to drop bonus items.
I mean, bosses don't even have to drop real loot. Maybe they're guarding a treasure - maybe they drop a key, or a door/barrier opens after they're gone.


The drops can be pure material (Mithril, etc) or Armor/Weapons that are great on their own, but can also be dismantled by the appropriate crafter, so he can learn how to make more of them.

This way, crafting would not be too powerful - as to make boss drops useless - but instead it would make use of those drops to make different stuff.

[MESS14H]

Wearing armor from x boss in x instance is a vanity trap that I hope people in this game dont fall into as the status you would gain from displaying certain sword or armor shows little achivenent if every player in the game has the same weapon or armor. Personaly I would hold more value in a player for there unique apearence rather than weather or not theigh have defeated a certain boss or not. City of hero's/Vilains is a classic example of this where players are more rememberd because of their cool costume their wearing that theigh designed themselfs.
there are other ways to display a players achiements like titles for instance or trophies in their Home or guild hall

[a chewy rock]

I favor the more unique looks as well. There's always going to be the top gear that people strive to get but there should always be room for customization.

[Seint]

Here's my thought on this. Why not just have these "design drops" to change the appearance of any kind of armor? Have different designs change the coloring a tad and shape slightly, that way you don't have to continuously farm for the same design drop and you can use any kind you prefer.
For example lets say that a "demonic design" drops, and this drop would slightly color your armor to a black/red mixture, and add spikes on the shoulders or something. Or maybe an "angelic design" could turn it a lighter color of whites and blues or yellows and make the armor smooth & divine?

I don't know, it's just a thought :)

[Nurvus]

If you want an armor with a different design, have it crafted with the design.

Makes little to no sense to just change it.
Also, those designs I suggested aren't meant to be consumables.

If you know the design, it's there for you - whenever you need.

So you find a "Damascus Scourgeplate" that has a jagged design, but you want a certain cool design you found.

So you get that Damascus Scourgeplate dismantled by an expert who learns how to craft it again, and manages to salvage - transform - most of the material into useful raw materials, and craft it again for you with the new design you require.

If situations where "you know the design, but someone else is the armoursmith" are possible, then perhaps a way to scribe a design (and sell/share) would be in order.

[Seint]

I get what you're saying, but if that were to be the way it worked wouldn't the world of kaos war be over-run with design scrolls? or whatever you want to call them. people would continuously find them and have nothing to do but sell them. Even rare drops would be easy to find simply because they aren't consumed when used.
I do like the idea you mentioned though, to be able to take it apart and rebuild it how you want, that could work nicely. But maybe the designs for armors should be sold from an npc? you browse through the designs, possibly hundreds, and pick which one you think looks best.

[Avacon]

i really like where you guys are going with this idea the only thing tho is i think most of this is going to be human for the armor bit because the Al'Gar i think thats how to spell it.. well anyways they have a completly diffirent system for the demon side of the game that i know of atm which is living armor. also found out a tad bit of info from damon the other day that there will be caipible ...can type it sry.. well will be able to have the guild emblems on you cape / armor/ flag whichever you want it on which would look nice if you had a nice emblem for your armor but that also ties into the armor aperance look so thier ya go's

[jimmy6154]

the armor that grow with you will be neat. Can't wait to see it in action

[Nurvus]

Seint, did you read my earlier post at all?

Where does that "economy overflowing with design scrolls" theory come from?

What makes you think that the developers - upon implementing an idea like the one suggested - would then proceed to make monsters drop Design Scrolls left and right?

Back to what I said, I said people could salvage equipment to attempt to gain the knowledge how to craft it (both quality and design).
The designs wouldn't just drop like that -_- It's not like armor has some instruction manual in the back pocket or something -_-

That smithy "might" be given a tool to share his "design blueprints" with a "scribing" skill or something.
And we're talking about design only.

You are making alot of extremist assumptions in those concerns expressed, as if the very same developes who might implement an idea were clueless as to how xD

[reddo]

If you want an armor with a different design, have it crafted with the design.

Makes little to no sense to just change it.
Also, those designs I suggested aren't meant to be consumables.

If you know the design, it's there for you - whenever you need.

So you find a "Damascus Scourgeplate" that has a jagged design, but you want a certain cool design you found.

So you get that Damascus Scourgeplate dismantled by an expert who learns how to craft it again, and manages to salvage - transform - most of the material into useful raw materials, and craft it again for you with the new design you require.

If situations where "you know the design, but someone else is the armoursmith" are possible, then perhaps a way to scribe a design (and sell/share) would be in order.
How about reverse engineering in general? So it would work for weapons and armor (maybe a robot or two :0 ). But I'd hope for this mechanic not to delve into the legendary armors, because one person selling "the awesomest sword ever" will make the market lopsided, as well as removing the need to defeat the bosses.

[Nurvus]

Really?
And even after learning how to craft that "awesomest sword ever", where do you think you'd find the materials to craft it?
In the convenience store?
And even if you did, would they be cheap?

Furthermore, to learn how to craft the awesomest sword ever you'd have to wreck it.

That means there would be no more awesomest sword.
You automatically lost a valuable item there.

Then you might be able to salvage the materials from that - now dismantled - sword.
That is if you knew how to work them into "raw" materials again. (Blacksmithing)

And if you did that, you'd probably still not salvage 100% of the material.
Let's say 80%.
Now you have to get the rest - probably beating the boss again or mining somewhere near the boss or something - to be able to craft the sword you destroyed.

That still wouldn't bring you profit. You'd just be recovering what you lost.

To get profit you'd have to craft new "awesomest swords ever" from scratch using materials from not-so-peaceful places.

[Avacon]

basicly in the terms your saying nurvus is. that a person would have to findout what the total mins needed to make the sword. doing so not only will you be able to craft but the time it will take to craft the sword. it will make it not so easy to come by. basicly the more you want to make the longer you need to keep going at it. by doing it this way it won't decrease its market value and will keep ppl intreaged. beside if there is one sword then there is bound to be many more to attempt the same at. basicly alot of time and effort into it.

[Nurvus]

Imagine if in WoW, every single piece of weapon had a certain "salvage" value associated to it.

Every metal item you get could be smelted into raw material.
Every leather armor could be used as raw leather for new armors, etc.

Those "grey" items would get salvaged into their raw components.

It would allow for a whole new level of economy.

[amz181]

Imagine if in WoW, every single piece of weapon had a certain "salvage" value associated to it.

Every metal item you get could be smelted into raw material.
Every leather armor could be used as raw leather for new armors, etc.

Those "grey" items would get salvaged into their raw components.

It would allow for a whole new level of economy.

i completely agree with you. One of the great things about runescape (yes runescape) was the many layered economy, there was an abundance of ways to make money.

mining
smelting
thiefing
runcrafting (magic goods)
crafting (the making of goods)
and killing

What i really want to see in this game is mining an smelting skills which can be leveled up, instead of the traditional NPC which enchants your armour for you

[jimmy6154]

thiefing



Hmm thieving... way off topic but is there an mmo out their that really does this justice?I mean like things other then stealth or backstabbing. More like pickpocketing and stealing..etc

[amz181]

Hmm thieving... way off topic but is there an mmo out their that really does this justice?I mean like things other then stealth or backstabbing. More like pickpocketing and stealing..etc
i do agree with you, most of the time its just a chance depending on your level whether or not you pickpocket anyone.

[Darthorious]

i do agree with you, most of the time its just a chance depending on your level whether or not you pickpocket anyone.

I could be wrong but I believe FFXI thief did. But it seemed to be purely random on what or if the thief got anything. I believe I remember rock salt and pugil scales were the norm but that was a long time ago and I don't know if it was "pick pocket" per-say as I was never a thief. So someone will have to correct me if I'm wrong.

[reddo]

Really?
And even after learning how to craft that "awesomest sword ever", where do you think you'd find the materials to craft it?
In the convenience store?
And even if you did, would they be cheap?

Actually, I want to use materials from lower level weapons to make this sparkly tool of destruction. I don't mean taking the recipe of a previous item and doubling the amount of required materials. Let's say "John" made an iron sword out of.. well, iron. Two levels later he wants to make a steel sword. BUT he needs iron to make the grip, as well as steel. He also needs iron and bronze (steel has bronze in it now >_>) to make the steel.
This also brings me to my next point. Why can't materials be more random? Why is bronze used only in low levels and forgotten at 1x? Why is uranium (the illogically strong, un-radioactive kind) found next to dragons? Do dragons create uranium in some way?
Now I'm not for putting uranium next to the starting zones, it's just that there can be other ways of attaining it rather than killing off the uranium-excreting dragons.

[Nurvus]

Some of the best gear could/should be crafted, imo.
But that would mostly be about Reforging or Upgrading equipment acquired with difficulty, or dismantling that brutally well crafted piece of armor, and recrafting it with a whole new and more powerful raw material.

Example: There's that Godly Masterwork Iron Breastplate, and you could learn how to craft it by carefully dismantling it, then with your great skill in working with Mithril, you'd make the Godly Masterwork Mithril Breastplate wich would have the quality of the first one, but made out of the great Mithril.

This implies a distinction between Quality of item and Material of the item.

[amz181]

Some of the best gear could/should be crafted, imo.
But that would mostly be about Reforging or Upgrading equipment acquired with difficulty, or dismantling that brutally well crafted piece of armor, and recrafting it with a whole new and more powerful raw material.

Example: There's that Godly Masterwork Iron Breastplate, and you could learn how to craft it by carefully dismantling it, then with your great skill in working with Mithril, you'd make the Godly Masterwork Mithril Breastplate wich would have the quality of the first one, but made out of the great Mithril.

This implies a distinction between Quality of item and Material of the item.

i myself would prefer things done along a skill system. For example you have a mining level and a smithing level. Your mining level indicates what sort of ores you can mine, and your smithing is what ores you can smelt into bars, and also what you can turn those bars into (breastplate, scimitar, teddy bear etc.)

So you would have to mine iron ore, go to a furnace (you can add a cost here for using it, like a 10% tax on what its worth, but then you could take this further by when you incorporate player housing, you could buy a furnace, which ofcourse would have no tax) and then you would get iron bars. Take it to a anvil (taxation again, but ofcourse you can buy an anvil for your house) and hammer it into a breastplate.

Hmm im thinking some more and i cant be bothered to write anymore so :p

[Nurvus]

Obviously a sense of progression must be in place, and a skill system is one way to do it.

It does not go against what I said at all - You can have a skill system that dictates the quality of craftsmanship you have acquired (and Iron Bars are effectively Iron Ore that has been "crafted" into useable material).

An armorsmith would improve his skill in 2 ways
- The quality of his craft - how good the armor is, despite the material it is made of
- The materials he can work with.

So an armorsmith could dismantle an armor to try and learn how to craft it, but his skill might not allow it.

And even if it allows it, maybe he is not skilled enough to learn it at once, and needs to dismantle more than 1 of the same armor to understand how it is crafted.

Alot can be done to define the depth of the whole crafting system.

[amz181]

Obviously a sense of progression must be in place, and a skill system is one way to do it.

It does not go against what I said at all - You can have a skill system that dictates the quality of craftsmanship you have acquired (and Iron Bars are effectively Iron Ore that has been "crafted" into useable material).

An armorsmith would improve his skill in 2 ways
- The quality of his craft - how good the armor is, despite the material it is made of
- The materials he can work with.

So an armorsmith could dismantle an armor to try and learn how to craft it, but his skill might not allow it.

And even if it allows it, maybe he is not skilled enough to learn it at once, and needs to dismantle more than 1 of the same armor to understand how it is crafted.

Alot can be done to define the depth of the whole crafting system.

I do like that idea. As you said it would add alot of depth to the crafting system. \

And maybe, for certain armours, like the high level armour for one material (Goblin crafted steel breastplate e.g.) you would have to defeat a boss to get the ability to create it, or do a quest... Like to learn how to create the goblin crafted steel breastplate, you could do a quest for a goblin in need and in return he allows you to see his secret...