Mobs and Loot Rate

[Nurvus]

[Mobs]
I strongly favor challenging and rewarding mobs.
A "mob" may be 1 tough enemy, or a group/team of enemies. That doesn't imply several of the same enemy.A mob might consist of 1 Wretched Commander, 1 Shaman and 6 Soldiers, and force you to pick your target.
I favor a complete inexistance of trash loot, and instead having it consist of currency and/or useable items (gear/consumables/etc) and/or salvageable items (broken iron sword -> smelted into iron) much like in Guild Wars. Even the "useless" items in Guild Wars have "collectors" who want them...[Loot Rate]
<Luck & Fate>

Kills award you Luck. Amount depends on the challenge.
After gaining enough Luck, your Fate increases by 1.
Fate increases the quality and rate of drops.
If you stop fighting for too long, your Fate decreases by 1, down to 0.
Each of those mobs' drops has a value of its own - when that item drops, that value is subtracted to your Luck, possibly reducing your Fate.
That value is proportionate to the quality and rarity of the drop.Essentially, Luck is drop experience, and Fate is drop level.

This means that as you are "unlucky", your effort builds your luck and through it your chances of getting "lucky".
If you are lucky, it decreases your chances of getting "lucky".

That means chance is still a factor, but effort improves your chance...
It's very frustrating when someone tries hard and gets nothing, while others barely try and get everything.

This suggestion is about the feel of reward.

[Mister Matt]

I really like that luck idea.

V=kqr

[a chewy rock]

That seems like a good idea.

[amz181]

Thats a good way to pay back players who spend alot of time trying to find loot. The numerous amounts of times i was trying to get an item and a random noob would find the same item with one kill with sheer luck. It really peed me off.

I like that idea

[Darthorious]

Thats a good way to pay back players who spend alot of time trying to find loot. The numerous amounts of times i was trying to get an item and a random noob would find the same item with one kill with sheer luck. It really peed me off.

I like that idea

Or even worse yet I've seen 2 of the same item drop in a row for the same newb while I have yet to get a single drop after say 1000+ hours (ex-aderating there of course but to make a point)

[amz181]

And what made it worse is that you knew that the newb would quit in about 2 days

[a chewy rock]

That is quite an annoying situation. I remember numerous times that it's happened to me.

[amz181]

its the sort of stuff that makes you want to break something ;D

[reddo]

I lose a bit of my soul every time that happens. I like your idea, Nurvus. It'll give us players a reason to kill stuff, other than the basic loot + xp.

[amz181]

but dont make the max fate too high, so allow some people who fight for about 1 hour to get to high fate levels, so that it just doesnt help 24 hour gamers.

Also a way to reward long time players (so people at high levels) is that fate generation can be multiplied by a number (depending on level) to increase the fate gained.

so for a level 5 who kills 10 monsters, he gains 3 fate

and for a level 70 who kills the same 10 monsters he gains 5 fate.

You'll notice that its not that steep, and wont really help. But it will become more pronounced the more kills you get. so it would be a wider gap.

so 30 to 50

and even 300 to 500.

So it would work to help those who have devoted longer time to the game and give incentive to those who are at lower levels.

So it would save use from the evil lucky noobs.

[Damon]

Well then you will love it. We have very challenging mobs. We ran our first test of our alpha and died 40 times on the first run!

[amz181]

Lol, but wow, you guys have already got an alpha client ready, you lot are going fast.

[hanstin]

wait what? alpha client O.O zomg!!!

[Aveoon32]

dude sweet, looks like my prediction on Q1 09 closed beta is more then possible :)

[Damon]

We are getting pretty far. The Humans (the race we started with) are looking AWESOME.

[amz181]

AND YOU HAVE VIDESOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ICANT W8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you better have some media on the "great looking" humans

[Damon]

Yes the first of the humans will be in the update.

[amz181]

i cnt w8 to see adam and eve :p

[Damon]

We also have female Deva, but we might wait until we perfected their race abit more before we show them.

[amz181]

ackh! this dribble of information your giving us is getting me excited :p hurry up before i explode :D

[a chewy rock]

*explodes* I hope these Humans are as great as I want them to be.

[Damon]

Well I don't want to overhype us too early. But personally when I see the humans as they are right now. It makes me wish the game was done so I could play! Really excited about our art direction in-game. Again our goal is to blow your mind when it comes to quality of the in-game experience. Its our mission and everyone here shares that same vision.

[a chewy rock]

This whole time I've been wishing the game was done so I could play.

[amz181]

And all this time i was wishing that chewy rock could play. I mean come on, look how irresistably cute his lickle avatar is.

But nyways, ur excitement gets me excited becoz i know how you guys are going for the best, so it must be some euphoric art direction lolz, but i cnt w8.

Any chance of an ETA? I wont hold you by it, just want a time scale to keep things in perspective.

[a chewy rock]

Does the future count as an acceptable ETA?

[Volfae]

an angelic glow, as the videos depict it, my most favored style for any game.

<3

[Spartan]

Kaos War Release Date ANNOUNCED!!!

"When Damon feels like it"

But before 2020.:D

[Nurvus]

but dont make the max fate too high, so allow some people who fight for about 1 hour to get to high fate levels, so that it just doesnt help 24 hour gamers.

Not sure you read my post well, or maybe I wasn't clear.
Your Luck/Fate rises as you kill monsters.
The tougher the monster, the more Luck/Fate you get.

But when an item drops, your Luck/Fate decreases.
The better the item, the lower your Luck/Fate drops.

An exceptional item may even drop your Luck/Fate into the negatives so that you are almost exempt of getting anything good for a while.

So it doesn't matter if you play for 1 hour or 10 hours straight.
Whenever you get something good, your luck drops proportionately, so you have to build it up again to improve your chances.

[Balance]
How to balance this?
The key factors are:
1: How fast you build your Fate to the limit.
2: How heavy are the penalties for getting good loot.

Example:
Initial Max Fate = 5.
Average time to get 5 Fate = 1 hour.
Exceptional items lower Fate by 5 and lower max Fate by 1 for 2 hours.
Rare items lower Fate by 4 and lower max Fate by 1 for 1 hour.
Uncommon items lower Fate by 3 and Lower max Fate by 1 for 30 mins.

Your Fate can go into the negatives.
The penalties refresh durations. So if you get 1 Exceptional item now, and 1 Exceptional item 1 hour later, you now have max Fate lowered to 3 for 2 hours.

This means that if you keep on grinding good stuff, the game starts shutting loot down on you.

This is an example ofcourse. Don't mind the numbers, just focus on the raw concept.
[Note]
You may be able to get anything whatever Fate you have.
What changes with Fate are the chances and quality of drops.
Fate can, however, be used to "Unlock" initially unavaliable loot, and that would further restrain bursts of luck.

These are just a few measures that can be implemented to help fairness and feel of reward prevail over frustration.

The whole point is to help reward players for their effort.
To create a bond between luck and effort.

[Party]
In a party, the one who gets the item could be the one to get his Luck/Fate reduced (actually disencouraging Ninjas).

This luck and fate might not affect boss drops at all.

We are getting pretty far. The Humans (the race we started with) are looking AWESOME.

I seriously hope they look better than WoW's humans xD.
WoW, Neverwinter Nights 2, and many other humans, seem eternally exhausted, in a beaten posture xD.

Also, one thing I've always wondered was if it is viable to make several animation "sets" avaliable for a character, such that you can add even more uniqueness.

By animations I mean the way you swing your weapon, walk, run, etc.
Some might wanna have a goofy mood, others a more serious mood, etc.

[amz181]

i missed the deduction bit, but that would be a very good system

[reddo]

I think they're doing something similar to this in The chronicles of Spellborn

[Moloch]

Your Luck/Fate rises as you kill monsters.
The tougher the monster, the more Luck/Fate you get.

But when an item drops, your Luck/Fate decreases.
The better the item, the lower your Luck/Fate drops.

An exceptional item may even drop your Luck/Fate into the negatives so that you are almost exempt of getting anything good for a while.

So it doesn't matter if you play for 1 hour or 10 hours straight.
Whenever you get something good, your luck drops proportionately, so you have to build it up again to improve your chances.

This means that if you keep on grinding good stuff, the game starts shutting loot down on you.

These are just a few measures that can be implemented to help fairness and feel of reward prevail over frustration.

The whole point is to help reward players for their effort.
To create a bond between luck and effort.

Actually, in my opinion, what this system does is promote grind and enhance the separation between casuals and hardcore players. It doesn't create "a bond between luck and effort", it reinforces a link between loot and time played.

By making you "exempt" from good loot after a good drop for aperiod of time played, it removes enjoyment and incentive from playing. Not so much a factor for the hardcore or the farmers, who'll play longer than the casuals and so benefit more.

This reminds me of WoW's flawed initial rest system which penalized people for playing longer by reducing experience earned. Psych 101 - do not penalize your customers for using your product. Instead, people don't mind if a benefit is obtained ... perhaps the "hour of power" concept on first log-in each 24 hour period.

Sorry Nurvus, not with you on this one.

[Nurvus]

Actually, in my opinion, what this system does is promote grind and enhance the separation between casuals and hardcore players. It doesn't create "a bond between luck and effort", it reinforces a link between loot and time played.

By making you "exempt" from good loot after a good drop for aperiod of time played, it removes enjoyment and incentive from playing. Not so much a factor for the hardcore or the farmers, who'll play longer than the casuals and so benefit more.

This reminds me of WoW's flawed initial rest system which penalized people for playing longer by reducing experience earned. Psych 101 - do not penalize your customers for using your product. Instead, people don't mind if a benefit is obtained ... perhaps the "hour of power" concept on first log-in each 24 hour period.

Sorry Nurvus, not with you on this one.

I can see your point, and it sure makes alot of sense to me as to why you'd think that, but I beg to disagree.
Not entirely, but I do.

I often have trouble making myself clear, as I easily drift off and end up uncoherent in my words, but I'm working on it =P.

As I meant to suggest, the initial drop chances would be normal.
I never meant it to be a starting bad chance that you'd have to grind up to get somewhere.

The only purpose of this suggestion was and is to make it so that as you keep "not" getting anything good, the chances to get something good increase.

This alone doesn't change anything to the worse where it regards grinding.
It simply favors casual players, that currently are very likely to "not" get anything in their short play, specially if there is loot in the game that can make or break.
Like in WoW, where 1 single lucky drop can get you gold worth weeks of casual play...

Going on with my suggestion, when you "do" get something good, chances are meant to go back a bit towards the (initial) normal chance - depending on how good that drop was.

Further on, I suggested a limit to how "lucky" you can "keep getting".

That was not meant to lower the "normal" chances, but to limit how much you can build them "again".
I think that clearly goes against grinding.

Time played always makes a difference in one way or another.
However, how will the game system decide what people want to do while playing?

Will there be interest in unchecked exploration? Or will the challenges keep urging people to grind - because they know where and how- their gear to shape?
---------
But then again, it was just a "possible" sollution to "possible" problems.
I'm not here deciding what is a problem or not, except for the single somewhat absolute truth in most games wich is the lack of feel of reward.

Hell, I don't want stuff handed down to me, but I much rather play a game where challenges are tough, and reward is fit, than beating easier stuff with 0.01% chances of getting something nice.

-------------
I'm not insisting as it was really just an idea to be used - or not - as intended.
Actually, didn't expect this idea to be used as is, but instead expect with my brainstorm to possibly give you your own ideas for a great loot system that doesn't let the game economy break down in the long run.

I'm just trying to make sure my point of view is clear.

In any regards, thanks alot for the attention to my idea and the impecable understanding.

[Rauko]

Not sure you read my post well, or maybe I wasn't clear.
Your Luck/Fate rises as you kill monsters.
The tougher the monster, the more Luck/Fate you get.

But when an item drops, your Luck/Fate decreases.
The better the item, the lower your Luck/Fate drops.


I can see your point, and it sure makes alot of sense to me as to why you'd think that, but I beg to disagree.
Not entirely, but I do.

I often have trouble making myself clear, as I easily drift off and end up uncoherent in my words, but I'm working on it =P.

As I meant to suggest, the initial drop chances would be normal.
I never meant it to be a starting bad chance that you'd have to grind up to get somewhere.

The only purpose of this suggestion was and is to make it so that as you keep "not" getting anything good, the chances to get something good increase.

This alone doesn't change anything to the worse where it regards grinding.
It simply favors casual players, that currently are very likely to "not" get anything in their short play, specially if there is loot in the game that can make or break.
Like in WoW, where 1 single lucky drop can get you gold worth weeks of casual play...


Combining what you've said, perhaps simply game time should increase you fate/luck. It could be a hybrid of time played and killing monsters.
But if you base it solely on killing monsters then Moloch would be right.

Perhaps you get 1/3 killing monsters. 1/3 from time logged and playing (doing whatever, like crafting. And this would include time you spent killing monsters) and 1/3 from real-time, server time, whether you area logged in or not.

Hardcore players get some advantage still since they can increase it faster by killing and being active. Casual players can still get it by playing and simply existing so that when they do go hunting they will probably get something.

What it should do is raise the chances of getting that item. So the hardcore player has a 10% but the casual who hasn't fought in two weeks has a 20% chance. Don't be upset if you're hardcore though, cause if the hardcore kills twice as many things as the casual while looking for it...he ends up with the same chances as the casual player. Not to mention he's raising his chances with each kill.

[Nurvus]

I like much of that idea.
If the game is rich with activities beyond simple monster slaying, having time increase your drop chances will actually instill people to do something other than just grind.

But not all is roses.
Let me try to break this down to issues.

- In the popular loot systems, loot is erratic. You can get the jackpot in 1 minute, or nearly nothing in 10. This black & white scenario easily brews frustration on the less fortunate. However, as you increase your grinding time, you tend to a certain average loot rate. This favours grinding.

- What I suggested was a way to make the game help you find that average loot rate at a faster, controlled pace.
You start out with normal chances, and only build your luck by "not" getting anything good. And when you do, you go back to normal chances.
Basically, it's somewhat of an ensurance that you "will" get something.

- Because that alone is only meant to boost the initial playtime, and I didn't do any objective math to back my idea, I came up with possible sollutions to unchecked potential problems, such as any latent grindability to it. Such were my suggestions to make great drops lower the maximum "extra" Luck you can achieve for a while, so that you can't grind - wich is essentially a cycle - your Luck.

- Your idea of gaining luck over played time, does not benefit casual players, as it again places in time more power. It only benefits those that do something other than just grinding. But that is a good change.

- Luck gained over offline time, on the other hand, truly benefits casual players.

------------
This isn't meant to give those that don't play much as much as those that play alot... Not even close.
However it is meant to remove the stress of "time grinding" => loot, giving people some slack.
------------
Bottom line, no one is penalized.
The one thing that changes is the feel of reward.
Those that are more used to feel unlucky and frustrated because they are just that - unlucky - are given a helping hand in eventually getting something out of their effort.

This isn't about making it easy, but about making it more fun and likeable.

---------------------
In short, just think of those players that can go on for hours, days, weeks and even months without getting 1 single great item.
In WoW, there are players that never, ever got an epic BoE drop - level 70 players.
And the opposite also happens very often. It's distressful.

The suggestion is to help prevent "not getting anything".
Even if it increases the overall loot gain, at least it helps everyone get something.

[Rauko]

- Your idea of gaining luck over played time, does not benefit casual players, as it again places in time more power. It only benefits those that do something other than just grinding. But that is a good change.

- Luck gained over offline time, on the other hand, truly benefits casual players.

------------
This isn't meant to give those that don't play much as much as those that play alot... Not even close.
However it is meant to remove the stress of "time grinding" => loot, giving people some slack.

Luck gained from playing would benefit the hardcore players in the same amount as casual. Like I said, while killing monsters you are building luck from both the kills as well as time spent doing it. Casual players could just spend time doing things, not necessarily killing, and be gaining some luck, but not as much as if they were killing at the same time.

Luck gained over offline time would benefit casual players, sure, but it would benefit hardcore players in the exact same amount. I didn't mean that it increased your luck only for time offline. I mean that it increased your luck every lets say 15 minutes whether you are online or not, for all accounts basically.

Perhaps throw out the third part. Since everyone gets it being on or offline, I suppose it wouldn't make a big difference.
I just know in LotRO there is a fairly good focus on casual players in the non-fighting content. There are seasonal festivals, etc and crafting always takes time. I'd like to see something making sure that those players can still get loot and, if nothing else, money, as a reward for their activity.

[Nurvus]

Gaining Luck over time played can be made inactive while in combat. You'd only get luck from killing when killing.
This kind of makes it benefit non-killing activities, like exploring, crafting, etc.

Luck gained offline would give a boost to the initial gameplay time. Just like the rested bonus in WoW.
It runs out though, as you get exp (in this case, good drops).

It's important to notice that Luck only goes down as you get nice stuff.
And if that stuff is too nice, the maximum Luck can be made to go down for a while too, so you can't keep grinding up to great chances.

This is not to benefit casual players against hardcore players.
Afterall, everyone does get whatever boosts this offers, but the ones that feel the most difference are the ones that usually face the most random loot rate of all; the ones that play the least - casual players.

It does give options to people.
Allows everyone to think in terms other than loot loot loot... Allows for less compromising choices.

[Lost]

I d like to make a suggestion on loot.


Normal loot drops : chance 50% from humanoids
Rusty gear (weapons, armor and cloaks) / Coins/ sources of resources (like metal rings , broken swords , wooden shields)

Normal loot drops : chance 100% from animals (animal body parts)
Bone / Hide / (pieces eyes , meat , etc)

Normal loot drops : chance 90% from robotic stuff (parts , resources)
Metals / Chips / (pieces like armor plates , wires etc)

-----------------------------------------
Loot system 2

Craft system (each side besides with number of recipes that the player can learn from the race's super computer)
There would be 2 systems for crafting
Human (player crafting) who can learn and focus on high level recipes make everything in the game basically. They gain recipes and resources from the Timestream system.

Bot (player owned droid) who can learn any basic weapon , armor and few basic potions. It downloads the new recipe , taps out at 75% success.

--------------------------
Timestream system

(I m not sure if there are nation or race leaders so this is gonna be kinda winged) Void in time happen around the around , the race leader , (an elected player) can sense when these are going to take place. (they given 3 hour notice , or happen on a time table on regular bases)

The players fight over the void in time , in a mass pvp battle , and non pvpers can do quests to aid the battle indirectly (like unlock buffs , super weapons )

Once the timestream is under the winner player's control the have access to a random place in time in which to get advance or magical weapons, or resources.

For a period of 10 hours , the player race ruler gains a small cache of weapons / gear which goes into the auction system automatically. This happens every 2 hours , during this time , the void in time and the area where they control players can explore uncovering past , and future technology.

The race leader in this system is responsible for production, and resource management for the race. The race leader has no direct touching of the resources or cache , he/she only controls building and directing the nation to produce and refine materials/goods/weapons/armors.

-----------
The technology would be like Battletech ish , there is some high tech stuff running around , but war , time and lost of knowledge makes it hard to maintain. The player's role becomes to control the time streams , finding caches of weapons , recipes and stuff. And of course rebuilding the world.

In this idea , nothing would drop other normal gear , that the player can get refined , enchanted or upgraded with tech.

-------------------------
What about Raid Loot?

Well , the raid loot , would be bosses of the void, super strong Deva / Demons (I dont remember what they are called) tainted by the magic and time elements. They would be far more than bag of hit points, they would try to stop the player from reaping thier resources.

[Nurvus]

Anyway, to sum up the whole point of this suggestion.

The system concept I idealized in the original post, is not meant to increase your drop chances entirely.
Instead, it is meant to let you fight towards a drop chance treshold.
Yet whenever you get something, your drop chance gets kicked back down by a proportionate amount.

The difference from the usual systems and this system is - at least theoretically - like the following example:

An item has a 5% drop chance, from every monster in an area.
Current System]
- Theoretically, you're entitled to 1 item every 20 kills.
- Realistically, you may end up getting it twice in a row on the first 2 kills, or maybe never...

Time plays a huge factor, getting you several attempts at luck, without granting consistency.

The fact that casual players depend heavily on luck, while grinders can somewhat work against the odds in the long run, causes often frustration due to the difference in reward.

Given a certain time frame, the problem is not quantity - it's quality.

Suggested System]
- As you kill enemies, the drop chance improves.
If you consider that every enemy you kill improves that item's drop chance by +5%, and that you fail to get it for the first 19 kills, you'd have a total of 5+5x19 = 100%.
The 20th enemy would drop the item 100% sure, and the item's drop chance would go back to 5%.

Meaning you'd actually get 1 of those items every 20 enemies, or close.
Ofcourse this is just an example, I'm not saying the chances rise to 100%, but even if they did, you'd need to be unlucky all the way to the 100%.

-----------------
I suggested additional penalties, like once you get an exceptional item, your drop chances go down below normal, perhaps down to 0%.
This stays that way for a while, but may be fought against with additional fighting.

Meaning you can decide to grind your way back to the "normal" chances, or go and do something else, like exploring.

Essentially, a system with diminuishing returns to counter grindability.

So it doesn't mechanically "boost" your drops - it can be tuned not to - but instead allows players to crush luck with pure merit in a - tuneable - proportionately short time.

Different enemies can improve drop chances by different amounts - A boss would improve alot more than a minion.

-----------
Conclusion]
The more I think of it, the more I'm sure that it can be finely tuned to reward players without making things too easy or too hard, or encouraging activities that are both annoying and prone to help destroy the economy of a game - like grinding.

Even if grinding starts as a choice of play, the slightest competitivity tends to turn it into an unfortunate necessity.