Divination - Skills

[Nurvus]

These are lots of ideas - many are very demanding, I know - But hey, doesn't hurt to share.

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Melee

Would be great to see different kinds of moves. Not just Damage Per Second, not necessarily having their effects working 100% of the time.
Comparing WoW to NwN/Dungeons and Dragons, I like the fact that the later has intuitive statistics that reflect a character's ability to dodge/resist an ability/effect, rather than each ability having just a chance to hit and the characters having a chance to resist, independently of everything.
Obviously a huge dragon isn't gonna get knocked down by a goblin's club attack or something, but doesn't mean he should be immune either, because another dragon might just do the job for you (manipulated/tamed) or a Manifestation/Summon that is big/strong enough, even if slow and difficult to call.

WoW just makes powerful effects, and then balances everything by making "powerful" enemies immune to ALL of those effects - to me that is lame.
They give some class a really powerful tool, and then just make every single boss/strong enemy immune to it to "balance".
They crap and cover it with candy or gold xD

The better structured a system is from the base, the less will be the need for "silly fixes" and unfair balancing.

Moves could easily be balanced by:
- Effect (damage, healing)
- Startup delay/cast time (some moves would take some huge preparation, to compensate their effect)
- Performing time - how long it takes to perform. (while it IS taking effect, not casting time)
Example 1: after charging up (delay?) hops forward, grabs enemy, jumps into the air spinning, and then comes down, slamming him against the ground (Street Fighter II Zangief anyone?)
Example 2: charges against the enemy and rams shoulder into the enemy (performing time tied to distance)
- Recovery time - some moves might leave your character prone to counterattacks, others just finish
Example: falling down from a jumping rising sword swing, and then getting up.
- cool time - how long must you wait to use it again, even though this is, for most cases, highly unrealistic

Example attacks
+ Shoulder Charge - winds up, initiates running, and performs the charge as it nears foe.
Damage is higher the heavier and faster he runs.
Distance gives the charger distance to gain speed (to a limit) but also gives more time to the foe to dodge.
Enemy is most likely knocked down and back (if hit) unless extremely prepared and big/tough/strong.
Charger takes some steps to stop the charge after hitting/missing target(s).

+ Rotten Harvest - bends down, grabs foe (one or two-handedly, depending on size - foe must be laying on the ground) and picks him up and headbutts him.

+ Mountain Scream - spins around while picking up speed with a two-handed weapon, and slams/cleaves enemy from above.

Imagine a Shoulder Charge -> Rotten Harvest -> Mountain Scream combo.

Ranged

Doesn't make much sense to have powerful ranged abilities.
The ammo is what defines the weapon overall effect, unless some runologic/spiritual factor is included.

I think ranged weapons could have their effects amplified by magic effects.
Like particle acceleration fields, something like a magic circle between the weapon and the target, that alters/amplifies the ammo's effect.

This can result in several stuff, like shooting at the ground, making fields that replicate shots, but those fields may work for Ranged weapons and Magic projectiles alike, being more of a support magic.

Magic

+ Evocation - Creation magic.
Creates energy of different shapes and types.
May fill something or someone with energy, even damaging it if it can't withstand, or just create a surge of energy in the form of an explosion.
- Fireball
- Explosive Might - increases target's strength, possibly damaging the target (unless his constitution is good enough to withstand the energy)

+ Transmutation - Altering spells.
Turning something to stone, or thickening your skin, making you bigger, stronger, smaller, make your body more resistant, in order to withstand energy increases produced with evocation, etc.
Alters the flow of time or space, slowing or accelerating.
- Haste
- Slow
- Stoneskin

+ Conjuration - Manifestation and summoning magic.
Manifests something onto a plane by opening portals or aligning existences, be it your enemy into Hell, a servant into your plane, or teleporting something to somewhere.
- Hellmouth - opens a breach that lets forth the raging heat of hell.
- Penance - manifests the target onto the bowels of Hell for a few moments. The mastery of the wielder determines the how fully manifested the target is, and for how long.
- Abyssal Leggionaire - summons a fiendish ally.
- Demon Wing - summons a large living axe (has a will of its own, fighting with its own unique style, using your body as a puppet to wield it)

+ Divination - informative magic. Glimpsing a few seconds into the future, increasing your reaction ability, for example, seeing what is hidden, etc.
- Premonition - increases reaction by seeing a few seconds into the future. (yet it splits attention, and may slow your perception of current time)

+ Necromancy - art of manipulating life, death... and undeath.
Together with transmutation, animation of deceased beings or inanimated objects and changing them into your double, etc.

+ Illusion - manipulate the mind with illusion. This would require great intelligence to come up with an illusion that will affect your enemy as you want it to. Some spells may even have stronger effect the more targets they affect, in a collective illusion.

+ Enchantment - manipulating things by force rather than cunning.
To manipulate a mind directly, commanding a being in your stead.
This magic type would rely majorly on other types for most of its effects, like mixing Enchantment with Evocation to produce a flame onto a sword's blade, etc.
- Immobilize - forces your target still.
- Blazing Weapon - coats a weapon with fire.

+ Abjuration - protective, cleansing magic. Barriers, dispelling magic, etc.
- Magic Ward - absorbs the next spell cast against you.
- Dispel - self-descriptive

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Spellcasting
+ Would be cool to be able to cast spells...:
- with verbal component;
- without verbal component (requiring more training, ignoring effects like silence or sound-restrictive areas);

+ ...and...:
- using both hands. (easiest and full power);
- one hand (good to fight with 1 one-hander, spells take more time to cast or are less powerful);
- using your body motion (more compatible with fighting, requiring less training, but less powerful in itself)
- free from movement (hardest to master, but compatible with everything)

+ ...and distinguishing...:
- still spellcasting - full casting speed
- moving spellcasting - slower casting speed and/or lowered reflexes
- running spellcasting - slowest casting speed and/or most lowered/nullified reflexes

Casting would be done:
- Using seals (elemental seals, shape seals and meaning seals) to cast a spell. (in an abstract comparison: Naruto's jutsus)

Explanation
- For verbal spells, you'd click the spell, then the sequence of seals, each consuming your spellcasting "energy", whether you formed the spell correctly or not. ;)

Implementation wise, This would not result in a series of commands sent to the server. It would be inputted and received by the client, and the client would send the spell command to the server if the spell was successfully cast.

- For verballess spells, the initial spell click might not be needed, if all spells had distinct forms, and/or a "finish" seal to indicate you're done, in case there are spells that "include" other spells' seals, like different ranks of the same spell.

- For body motion spells, the actions taken, in the form of skills (movement or attack/defense) would be the seals themselves, and after a combo you'd have finished your spellcasting, with a powerful finish.

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That's all for now.
I hope you liked the ideas, even if they are never gonna happen xD

[Nurvus]

Sorry for the Necro post, but, anyone got any thoughts on this? =)
Anything sort of unique in concept you've seen in some game or thought of that would look clean and cool on Kaos War?

I know it's a wall of text, so if you don't care to read it all, what I'm most interested in is comments regarding the section under Spellcasting.
The rough idea is that, most games only allow for instant cast abilities while you're moving.
1 - What if you could train yourself to be able to cast or channel spells while moving, even if with a penalty? - possibly also partially/fully negated through further specialization;
2 - What if you could cast spells with various degrees of physical exertion, such as needing Both Hands; only needing one Hand or no need for bodily movements at all?
3 - What if you could train melee combat styles that use your attacks as a spell component, such that once you've finished your attack sequence, you complete your spell.
4 - What if some or all spells were cast/channeled through various smaller chained incantations by default?
5 - What if you could train to cast without the need of verbal assistance? - silence immunity, casting underwater, casting in the void.

There are more ideas to it, but I'm probably going too far already xD

[Seint]

I read quite a bit of your post, but not all of it. I do like some of the ideas you listed. They're interesting, but I have to give some input on this :).

Since Kaos War is going to be an Action based mmorpg, there is no need for a targeting system. Targeting should still be possible, but should not be a necessity to combat. Because of this, skills will need to be aimed rather than casted. If you're aiming, when the hell are you going to have time to look at a cool down timer? NEVER! Hopefully the stamina system will be the cool down system. Strong moves use a lot of stamina/mana and you must wait until stamina/mana is at appropriate level to use again (perhaps stamina should be a very large number OR take some time to recover).

Overall:
-Many skills should be able to be used while moving.
-Ranged players game play should work like a first/third person shooter.
-Melee players game play should be first person/third person (if first person is possible please don't make it suck ass like every other mmo, at least reach oblivion's level)
-Magic players game play should play the same as ranged, but they should have to aim ahead (travel time of spells[if any])
-Skills should have an internal cool-down based on their animation's length.

Melee Skills:
-Combo's should be possible, don't just make random attacks.
-Should slow player/stop movement when used
-Charge attacks should be available (running at opponent w/ powerful first hit)
-Very few skills should have a cool down, perhaps they could all share a cool down based on another stat (like stamina, but different)
-Push back should be possible.
-Push over should be possible.
-Knock upward (maybe for upper-cut style attacks?)
-Air-only attacks (jumping & slamming to ground, or jumping to swing at jumping opponent [normal attack + jump for 2nd])
-Melee skills should not miss by chance, it should be based on player skill.

Ranged skills: (guns)
-If there were bows, higher damage would make sense, but there aren't (so far).
-Shooting while standing has higher accuracy than while walking/running
-Shooting while crouched should be possible, and give more accuracy.
-Shooting while laying down should be possible, and give more accuracy than crouching, and should take time to get up from (so people can't use it anytime they want in close-quarters fights)
-Different ammunition types should be available. If you want a good example just look at Mass Effect (fantastic game).
-Sniping should be possible. There should be a cool down for this depending on the weapon used. (I mean ACTUAL sniping, not just a longer ranged skill...)
-Depending on how the weapons work (pulse rifles, lasers, bullets, etc), there should be different ways to reload. Lasers & pulse should use a battery OR overheat when shot to often (system is used in many games and is effective). Bullets will obviously have clips of ammunition.
-Accuracy of shots fired should not be statistic at all, it should be based on player skill.

Magic Skills:
-AoE's and high power spells should be the few abilities that require a non-moving cast time.
-There should be a default attack for casters, much like shooting a gun, but firing magic types. Should be available while moving.
-Magic should have some 'homing' properties too them in order to make it slightly easier to aim. Bullets Travel almost instantly, spells do not (for the most part) Not to mention.. It's magic.. You control it!
-There should be AoE's that come from the ground (Earth Shatter, Frozen Spire, Eruption, etc.)(base them on your custom magic types of course!).
-Some sort of instant traveling spell (like lightning)
-If teleporting is possible, restrict it's usage time, but make it possible to teleport wherever you want within a certain distance.
-Barriers should be available (please make them look cool, not just a 2D image :()


That 3rd stat mentioned in melee:
I don't know what it'd be called, but it would be another stat like stamina, but it would be much less, and would refill faster. It would basically be the cool down to your more powerful skills in order to reduce spamming. Lets say you use overwhelming strike, it uses that bar entirely as well as however much stamina, and it takes 5 seconds to refill this 3rd stat from empty. I think it would be very effective!

Movement Skills:
-Sprinting: Should be available to every class, should use a % of stamina/mana (based on stats) per second, and should be faster movement based on agility/intel.
-Jumping: Height of jump should increase with strength/agility. (more-so strength)
-Flight: Not sure what should effect this, maybe agility effects speed of flight, stamina/mana effects duration of flight? This would need to be re-thought.. not ever person would raise their agility... hmm..
-Riding: Should actually be raisable (unlike wow) and should actually increase your speed while riding, and possibly mounted combat. (mounted combat would be bad ass, especially if vehicles are put in).

Off-topic suggestion:
-Low stamina should decrease player's movement speed, melee damage, parry, and dodge. If you're tired you move slower.. it's just how it works.
-If you run out of stamina you should be forced to slow down to about 20% speed to catch your breath until you regain about 10% of your max stamina.

OMG that's a WALL! lol xD

[Nurvus]

You do realize you can adjust your Aim while using skills with a casting/channeling time, right?

As for needing to let your Stamina rise, that's essentially a cooldown you're watching.

Disclaimer: What I meant with the cooldowns I suggested was mainly for Guns and mechanisms where it makes sense having a cooldown, like a Railgun that overheats and you can't keep using it forever, and instead need to wait a few seconds between shots.

I don't like cooldowns where it's not realistic to apply them. If it makes no sense conceptually, it'll end up looking silly.
I mean, imagine Elemental Shamans in World of Warcraft...
"Damn, that Chain Lightning drained my energy... I'm really exausted and need to wait before I can use it again... so I think instead I'll use LAVA BURST!!!!! - (wich is more powerful)"

But I don't like it when everything you do is instant cast - there's nearly no challenge in that.

I think most instant cast stuff rarely makes sense.
Guild Wars, has only Stances and Shouts as instant cast.
Everything else is like 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1, 2, etc seconds cast time.

I think even Melee should only have attacks that use a percentage of your attack speed with your weapon.
So if your normal speed with your current weapon is like 3 seconds (how long it takes for you to swing it by default), you could have some quick swings that are 1/2 swing, and some really powerful attacks that are 2 swing, like in Legends of Kaos.

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For a truly variate and interesting combat system, you end up having to present different mechanics and ways of achieving a goal.

Running up to your opponent and smacking, is one of them.
Trying to stay away while shooting, is another.
Trying to keep your opponent away in order to prepare a powerful ability - that takes time (cast/channeled) to use - is another.

I really read the points you made and I don't understand where would casting/channeling times ever diminish the quality of the game.

As I said in a different thread, if you are able to defeat your opponent by just running away while using instant cast items/skills, you have no merit in that.
There are no variables on your side. It's your gear against your opponent's gear.

See it this way, if everything you do is instant (even with cooldowns), not only it is unrealistic, but it also trivializes most things like Stuns, etc.
On the other hand, if there are useful skills with cast times and "flaws" in the way you attack, creating windows of opportunity for your opponent, then you can also try and time your actions and make good or bad decisions.

More! When I say cast time, I do not mean that Fireball I just cast is going to chase you down (maybe you can train yourself to give it that property, though, even though limited in how far it can chase someone and how fast it can turn).
Have you played Diablo II? :D
You don't target there. You aim. With everything - melee, ranged, etc.

Still, I think you should be able to Lock On.
What if you wanna hit the guy behind me with a curve ranged attack? :D
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As for Stats used for combat, I think of:

Health, Stamina, Mana, and Tension?

Melee fighters may be able to harness Mana for melee combat, in a very raw and primal form, while casters also use Stamina in some of their skills.

As you use your Stamina/Mana you build Tension, wich would be used for ultimate attacks.
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[Examples of ways to manage abilities - they could]
1 - Consume X Stamina (or Mana or Tension) - Common Implementation
2 - Require X Stamina but do Not consume it - Example: Consumes nothing, but you need at least 50 Stamina to use it.
3 - Require X Stamina, but consume Y Stamina - Example: Only consumes 20 Stamina, but you need at least 50 Stamina to use it.
4 - Require X Stamina and Y Mana but do Not consume anything
5 - Require X Stamina but only consume Y Mana
6 - Require X Stamina (or Mana) but consume Y Tension
7 - Require X Tension but consume Y Stamina (or Mana)
8 - Useable after using ability A - even if it misses
9 - Useable after connecting with ability A - only if it hits.
10 - Mixes between 1~7 and 8~9

Abilities that require a Resource but do not use it, might probably be short term buffs, auras, shouts, etc.

There's no reason why not making something like Mana and Intellect useful to Melee fighters, even if only lightly.
Because, that Melee fighter might harness the Soulstream/Psionic/Darkwell energy in a very raw and primal manner, imbuing them into some of her abilities or passive traits.

In World of Warcraft, they could've made Spirit affect how fast your Rage, Energy or Runic Power rises.
In World of Warcraft, they could've made Intellect give you a small measure of Expertise and Defense, as you are more perceptive of what's going on and can more easily undermine your opponent's efforts.
In World of Warcraft, they could've made heavier armor require larger amounts of Strength, and make all types of armor available to everyone.
Mages, Priests and Warlocks might be interested in giving up some Attributes to

They chose not to. They chose to make bleak implementations and cookie cutter builds.
Cookie cutter is when you give up on A to get B, but you don't really lose anything from giving up on A.

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Finally, please PLEASE I would love to see Friendly Fire in a game... and ways to counter it.
Like a huge fire AoE that will hit everyone, friends and foes alike, but you can have someone cast a Mass Fire Ward to help withstand it (or completely protect against it) and catch your enemies by surprise.

[Seint]

Ranged Skills/combat ideas:
Melee skills can use 'cast times', magic skills can use cast times, but how can you have a cast time with a gun? It doesn't make sense. Perhaps every ranged weapon should have an over-heating system along with ammunition in each clip.
-Clip size = 30 rounds
-Weapon Heat Gauge = 100 total
-Weapon Heat Loss = 10 per second
-Heat generation from automatic rifle = 7 per shot(base) (5 shots per second)
---That'd be 25 Heat generated per second, total firing time possible without over heat = 4 seconds. Shots used if firing non-stop = 20 (that leaves 10 rounds in that clip)
-If the weapon over heats, the player cannot fire until the weapon's heat level reaches 0.
-Reloading should take a small amount of time (2-3 seconds)
-Different bullets would have more/less heat generation & different amounts of ammo in each clip, as well as different amounts of damage, and different effects on the target. (some could burn, some could freeze, some could poison, etc)

The weapon in the above example attacks very fast... As assault rifles are meant to. Because of this it's base damage must be lowered immensely if this should be viable. Lets say a 1H sword hits for 50 damage every 1 second. This rifle should be hitting for about 10 damage per shot. Possibly more since it's meant to be pure damage. (maybe around 15 per shot, would be even with DW).

Skills:
The only skills I can think of would be aimed shot, and perhaps change bullet types.

Think about it. It isn't the gun that makes a marksman a good shot, it's the practice. If you give a pro marksman a PoS gun that can barely let it's bullets fly straight, He's not going to do so well. Not to mention; Since when can you increase how fast a bullet travels? (typing this gave me an idea).

Perhaps for one of the skills, the player would add more black powder 'or whatever they use on kaos' to a shot to increase it's velocity. Thus increasing damage (possibly crit chance since it's moving faster).

Maybe grenades/satchel charges could be an option for ranged characters to give them an AoE. Satchel Charges could also be used in Siege game play, (or ONLY in siege).

Rifle Butt- Hit the enemy with the butt of your rifle, has a small push back.

That's all for now =P

[Nurvus]

I don't remember saying ranged should have cast time.

The notion of cast time should be in every skill.
In Guns and other weapons that fire instantly, it's reasonable to shoot instantly.

Still, it takes some time to aim. Heavier guns may take some more than others.
Yet, that aim is done once, after that you can fire while adjusting your aim (you're locked onto the target).

This might be considered a channel.
So you aim, you click to shoot, but instead of mashing the button, you just hold it to keep shooting.

Maybe even better, once you aim, you are considered "locked on" until your target moves far enough away from your aim.

Once you lose your aim, you take that time to aim again.

This is all conceptual but there's alot you can do to make it realistic and make moving and standing still have an impact on your ability to aim, etc.

The only thing I think should have a cast time is probably Bow, but even that can be argued to function similarly - yet slightly slower - to guns.

Imagine Desert Eagle:
Aim = 1 sec
Recoil = 0.5 sec
Shoot = Instant -> Channeled
Frequency = 0.25/shot
Clip = ~12 units

Black Shark (Particle Acceleration Rifle)
Aim = 2 sec.
Recoil = 1 sec
Shoot = Instant -> Channeled
Frequency = 0.5/shot
Clip = ~100 units (check Mass Effect for concept)

[Notion of Overheating]
Your idea seems fine.
There might also be weapons that just have a high chance to jam when overheated (worse the more you overheat them) instead of being unable to use them.

[Notion of Recoil]
Recoil would place you in "aiming" action, losing your lock-on, etc.
To counter this, partially or fully, you'd have a few means:
- Raw Strength
- Correct Stance
- Adequate Training
With enough of the above, you might end up being able to run, dodge, fight, etc, perfectly without suffering any effect from recoil at all.
Example, a certain stance might allow you to negate 50% of the recoil, by sacrificing movement speed or something.
This would cause the above weapons to have 0.25 sec (Desert Eagle) and 0.5 sec (Black Shark) recoil times.

As for skills, as explained above, I think you would benefit alot from Magic, by creating Particle Acceleration fields, replication fields, scatter fields, etc, to modify/enhance your shots.

Using nearby objects is also a great way to be a good shooter, even including throwing some potent object (igniteable or highly unstable) and shooting it for mass destruction.
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Once I suggested some hybrid melee/ranged weapons, like a Halberd that also works as a Cannon of sorts.
I specifically suggested it with 2 blades like /\ -> you stab with the weapon, then force the blades open like \ / inside the target, then shoot the Cannon between the blades ^^

[Seint]

I don't remember saying ranged should have cast time.
Not everything I post is contradicting what you say =P, it was just an idea.

How about we put this simply;
-Make the gun combat much like a mix of Mass Effect and Call of Duty 4, but with different twists and strategies to make it more complex/fun.

I like your idea with the over-heating/jamming. Perhaps there should be a different type of thing where if the gun is overheated while firing your gun rapidly degrades. Hot metal + force = warping. Warped barrel = shitty accuracy :(.

[SnipingAngel]

Implementation wise, This would not result in a series of commands sent to the server. It would be inputted and received by the client, and the client would send the spell command to the server if the spell was successfully cast.

My opinion on this is that its a lil to easy to hack. :/ Anything client sided would be vulnerable to hackers so that lil bit may be to hard to protect. Besides that i like most of what you said.

[Nurvus]

I see where you're coming from, and it may be so, but I also think you're not getting it entirely.

Imagine a queue.
You can even make macros that input all the commands for a single spell, if you wanted, but server side, they're still going to be "resolved" sequentially, as a single spell with X cast time.

:D So I don't think it would be hacke-able, like this.

My point was there not being a purpose in spam-like gameplay, but rather strategical, reactive and proactive.