Controls?

[amz181]

I know its slightly early to be asking about controls, but i think that you guys should have an idea by now.

Will the movement be controled by point and click or will it be W,A,S,D?
WASD i think is much better, because it feels so much more smooth and it makes you feel involved instead of clucnky point and click controls.

Also can you PLEASE have the camera functions (zoom, rotate etc.) on the keyboard, im sick and tired of not being able to adjust by camera because the devs put the camera controls onto the wheel scroll, leaving my touch pad absaloutely useless, :( please!

also, i noticed something, you talked about making the game more FPS like, does that mean, no more click and fight and actually button mashing? because if it is that would be brilliant, its quite annoying watching your player going OW! and then your enemy going OW! and so on, if you included a button say space bar or click, and combine that with WASD then you would wave done one of the most impossible things in MMORPGs, actually enrolling skill into battles... So are you planning anything along those lines?

[Nurvus]

My suggestion:
- W - move foward
- S - move backward
- A/D - turn
- Q/E - strafe
- Z - look back (you keep facing forward, good to see if someone is chasing you)
- X - turn back (both you and camera face backwards)
- Tab - selects next closest target within a narrow radius and reasonable distance in front of you.
- T - lock already selected target within a narrow radius and reasonable distance in front of you.
EDIT: Some abilities might remove target, and lock-on would be removed instead, if active.
Some abilities might remove target and lock-on.

EDIT: While target is locked on:
- You automatically turn (up to a certain maximum speed, linked to your agility vs constitution) to face the opponent's position. Maybe some other factors like training/skills would also affect the speed at wich you automatically turn.
If the opponent is moving fast, like running, this will probably not be enough to follow, and using the A/D keys will be necessary.

- W - get closer to foe (facing foe)
- Wx2 (quickly, maintain at second press) - run towards foe.
- S - move away from foe(facing foe)
- Sx2 (quickly, maintain at second press) - run away from foe (back towards foe).
- EDIT: A/D - increases/decreases the speed at wich you automatically turn to face your opponent's position.
This would mean if you managed to keep pressing the same direction towards wich your opponent is moving, you'd follow him more easily. If opponent goes one way and you click the other, it slows you down.
*This would be possibly the only way to follow the fastest movement.

- Q/E - strafe around the foe, keeping the same distance
- W+Q/E - advance in a spiral motion towards foe.
- S+Q/E - back spirally away from foe.


+ While running or moving quickly, if you want to start moving the opposite or perpendicular direction, it will be a somewhat gradual process, not instantaneous movement change.
Like running forward, seeing an army coming your way, and then starting to run away from them, in the opposite direction, would involve you slowing then stopping, to start gaining speed in the opposite direction.

+ If Jumping gets implemented, give it a realistic jump height/length, and make it have a realistic drawback - You get tired more easily; can't dodge in the air; block/parry will result in losing balance, possibly making you land on your behind; etc.
I hope we don't see bunnies everywhere...

[trast]

My suggestion:
- W - move foward
- S - move backward
- A/D - turn
- Q/E - strafe
- Z - look back (you keep facing forward, good to see if someone is chasing you)
- X - turn back (both you and camera face backwards)
- Tab - selects next closest target right in front of you (narrow radius)
- T - lock target (Some abilities may end/prevent this state, like disorienting attacks)

While target is locked on :
- W - get closer to him (facing him)
- Wx2 (quickly, maintain at second press) - run towards him.
- S - move away from him (facing him)
- Sx2 (quickly, maintain at second press) - run away from him (back towards him).
- W/S+A/D - move sideways (facing where you are headed, and free from lock on)
- Q/E - strafe around the enemy, keeping the same distance
- W+Q/E - advance in a spiral motion towards him.
- S+Q/E - back spirally away from him.


- If Jumping gets implemented, give it a realistic jump height/length, and make it have a realistic drawback - You get tired more easily; can't dodge in the air; block/parry will result in losing balance, possibly making you land on your behind; etc.
I hope we don't see bunnies everywhere...


My suggestion is the same as World of Warcraft.. easily the best movement controls and feeling in an mmo ever.

[Nurvus]

My suggestion is the same as World of Warcraft.. easily the best movement controls and feeling in an mmo ever.

World of Warcraft and Guild Wars both have the best controls I've seen in MMORPGs so far.
But I don't think this game is meant to be as good, or nearly as good as those, but better in some or every ways.

What I suggested, would make it even better than WoW - has all its cool stuff, and more.

Speaking of realism, you can easily follow an opponent with your eyes in most situations.
In WoW, jumping/running through your enemy to get his back is ridiculous.
Players can easily put themselves in a position where you get "target not in front of you..." message and stuff.

WoW is very flawed in that aspect - extremely exploitable and ends up being frustrating despite all its apparent freedom.

If we are to compare to WoW, moves that would remove lock-on and maybe even target from you would be among Mages' Blink, Rogues' Vanish, Feint, Hunter's Disengage and Feign Death, etc.



Lock-On would only serve as a means to alter your movements to better engage combat against 1 foe.
Maybe some moves would just remove Target unless you had Lock-On, in wich case it would remove Lock-On instead.
Lock on would be a focus on your target. A layer of protection against distractions.

Anyway, the thing is, moving freely is one thing.
Moving freely during combat has somewhat different needs.

My lock-on idea is an adaptation from Dragon Ball Tenkaichi games for PS2, wich are a good example in movement freedom.

[trast]

In WoW, jumping/running through your enemy to get his back is ridiculous.
Players can easily put themselves in a position where you get "target not in front of you..." message and stuff.

WoW is very flawed in that aspect - extremely exploitable and ends up being frustrating despite all its apparent freedom.


I, who have played since the release day, and are still playing WoW, can not agree with you on that point. The whole reason you can compete in the Arena on a real competetive level. Is because of the movement system, and because you do need skill to play the game. You do not seem experienced enough to talk about how it really is. Since none of the things you talk about are really true. (if you're not a keyboard turner lol).

A lock on option would just remove the aspect of skill from the game, since then the other person wouldn't be different from yourself.

[Lord Aries]

I've been rooting for the movement keys being 1-2-3-4 and weapons F1-F2 etc.

Also, dieing to see the abilities be put under, spacebar - enter - numlock.

The Dev Team never listens to my super awesome suggestions!

[Nurvus]

I, who have played since the release day, and are still playing WoW, can not agree with you on that point. The whole reason you can compete in the Arena on a real competetive level. Is because of the movement system, and because you do need skill to play the game. You do not seem experienced enough to talk about how it really is. Since none of the things you talk about are really true. (if you're not a keyboard turner lol).

A lock on option would just remove the aspect of skill from the game, since then the other person wouldn't be different from yourself.

I know what you mean.
In that aspect, I am more than experienced enough in WoW ;), but I won't bother going deeper on that.

Those things I criticize are tools I use(d) in WoW to get my way in battle, but it doesn't change the fact that it displeases me greatly.

---
1 - I go against no-collision. The collision does not need to be perfect.
I think the collision limit should be tolerant, going from the object's immediate surrounding to the immediate interior (a radius around the surface), so you can kind of "hug" the object, and press against it, but not go through it.

a) Pulling and pushing (gently or agressively) people around would solve the issues with players/NPCs blocking doors and such, while allowing some Roleplaying factors in like a bully Actively blocking a door and reacting to your pulling/pushing. ;)

b) Collision would eliminate that jump/run-through problem.
Ofcourse it's cool if you are quick enough to get the enemy's back, but not by exploiting some lame features of a game...

---
2 - Lock-on wouldn't mean instant turning like the lame monsters in WoW do.
Several factors like agility vs constitution would determine the ability to follow your opponent's movements.
Losing sight of him, even if momentarily = losing lock-on.

Lock on would simply change your movement type to better suit one on one combat.

To break that lock on, that just simbolizes focus, you'd have specific abilities like dash, teleporting, invisibility, flank, even smoke-bombs and stuff, to try and undermine your opponent's perception of your movement/position.

So, it's not removing skill, it's removing lame combat systems, when there are much better sollutions.

And I may be wrong, as it is just a guess, but I kind of bet you play(ed) a rogue.

I hope I dismystified my thoughts for you now ;)

[amz181]

I've been rooting for the movement keys being 1-2-3-4 and weapons F1-F2 etc.

Also, dieing to see the abilities be put under, spacebar - enter - numlock.

The Dev Team never listens to my super awesome suggestions!
LMAO! ;D thanks for the laugh

I, who have played since the release day, and are still playing WoW, can not agree with you on that point. The whole reason you can compete in the Arena on a real competetive level. Is because of the movement system, and because you do need skill to play the game. You do not seem experienced enough to talk about how it really is. Since none of the things you talk about are really true. (if you're not a keyboard turner lol).

A lock on option would just remove the aspect of skill from the game, since then the other person wouldn't be different from yourself.
no offence trast but you may have turned into a WoW fanboy, the WoW flaws are everywhere and the controls are no where near the best, :p.

[trast]

no offence trast but you may have turned into a WoW fanboy, the WoW flaws are everywhere and the controls are no where near the best, :p.

Nope, I do not enjoy playing the game anymore, and it has nothing to do with any "fanboy" crap, I would like you to point out wich game has better movement controls then WoW.

And to you Nurvus, again, collision? Give me a break? That would totally ruin the game, since that would be a way for people to exploit or rather annoy people to death. Think how anoying it would be if you had a main city with a huge population, and you can't run through people? :o You need to think of the consequences to you know, not only the "good" part of it. And FYI, again, the run thorugh is not a problem in World of Warcraft.

And, ill answer your question with, I do have a rogue, yes.. But I also have a Shadow priest, a resto shaman, and a mage. And the shaman is currently my main.

Think of it this way, they say they want to be as big as wow, with atleast as many members. Then all you have to do, is put in the collision and lock-on in WoW, and imagine how it would be like. And you should realize how ridiculous it is.

Edit: A thing I would like to add is, that you can not make a game to complicated if you want to beat something as big as WoW, you need to make it exactly as simple as WoW is, but it has all the things WoW don't. It needs to fit everyone just enough for the people to be satisfied. Not adding some Extreme-RP Mumbo-Jumbo for example.

[Nurvus]

There is no RP in WoW, fyk. None of significative quality anyway.

I'm no elitist of one thing or another, I actually go against deciding what is best for people, how they should have fun, etc.

I just share my personal opinions on what I like.

Where it comes to collision problems, I explained earlier, and you either missed or ignored it.

Played Assassin's Creed yet?
Imagine something like that. You kind of dodge+push people to move along. No big deal.
Something smooth and immersive. And you're talking of an exagerated situation, like some kind of Mall or market with loads of people like fish in a can.

No-collision in WoW, removes alot of realism in battle.
The fact that you can just move through enemy, and latency will often cause you to get the "out of sight" message even if you followed your opponent perfectly.

People jumping around like rabbits.
It is an easy game, with lame balance, and silly options.

World of Warcraft has 1 single great thing about gameplay.
The different styles each class offers. Unique playstyles.

Rogues being completely different in control than warriors, and hunters, etc.
From then on, it's a snowball of mistakes after mistakes. Each patch brings power to a class, and destroys most of its customizability.

Last patch transformed warrior trees into 3 types: PvP, PvE and Tank.
It's ridiculous. It's truly becoming the World of Clonecraft.

------
Along with the topic, the idea of lock-on, once again, is NOT to remove skill.
Moving your mouse quickly isn't about skill. Mashing buttons isn't about skill either.
Having "action sequence" macros isn't about skill either.

Moving behind your opponent is an option I like, but not by running/jumping through. Instead, by moving around him quickly enough.

If you pay close attention to the posts I made and think a bit out of the box, you'll probably see you'd have great mobility.
Imagine actions you could have rather than just imagining negative aspects of an "empty" system.

[trast]

There is no RP in WoW, fyk. None of significative quality anyway.


Well, I never said that. And, not true, there might not be alot of game mechanical RP things. But just play some on an RP server, and you'll notice that RPing isn't a problem.


Where it comes to collision problems, I explained earlier, and you either missed or ignored it.

Played Assassin's Creed yet?
Imagine something like that. You kind of dodge+push people to move along. No big deal.
Something smooth and immersive. And you're talking of an exagerated situation, like some kind of Mall or market with loads of people like fish in a can.


Don't compare it to a single player game. The whole idea might be smooth and immersive, but it's not like the NPC's are pushing back? And yes, think of it as the Action House in WoW, or the Bank in WoW, or a RAID in WoW, or maybe even a big event of any sort, even the Arena masters / Battleground masters, it would either be chaos, or just alot of idiots running around pusing everyone just because it's fun.
This ofcourse is only WoW, but don't say that this game won't have the exact same effect. And if people would be able to push one another away, this would be horrible, alot of people/most people are assholes, generally, and they would do anything to annoy another player, this only gives them more joy, as in going around pusing people everywhere.


No-collision in WoW, removes alot of realism in battle.
The fact that you can just move through enemy, and latency will often cause you to get the "out of sight" message even if you followed your opponent perfectly.


I agree with you, there are alot of bugs in wow when it comes to fighting, where latency does indeed make a big difference, of course this will affect all games, not just WoW. But wanting to add realism to a non realistic game, I can't understand. That's like saying that you should move slower if you get hit in the leg in Counter-Strike.

People jumping around like rabbits.
It is an easy game, with lame balance, and silly options.


To some degree, yes.


Rogues being completely different in control than warriors, and hunters, etc.
From then on, it's a snowball of mistakes after mistakes. Each patch brings power to a class, and destroys most of its customizability.

Last patch transformed warrior trees into 3 types: PvP, PvE and Tank.
It's ridiculous. It's truly becoming the World of Clonecraft.


I agree, that they do make mistakes, and they are bad att balancing all at once. But they have come along way since the good old "Ambush backstab" rogues, that could instakill any cloth user, or the ap -> pom -> pyro mages could oneshot almost anyone that didn't have 6k+ hp.

But all in all, so what if WoW is not very balanced, it doesn't change the fact that 5v5 arena pvp is balanced, or that No-Collision and Lock-On, would forever ruin the game, and make more then 80% of the people playing it, leave. And don't take me wrong, I know that we are talking about another game, but that game has not been released, and we have no idea how it will turn out. But adding things that complicates gameplay, and will interest a smaller crowd.
------

Along with the topic, the idea of lock-on, once again, is NOT to remove skill.
Moving your mouse quickly isn't about skill. Mashing buttons isn't about skill either.
Having "action sequence" macros isn't about skill either.

Moving your character the right way is about skill, and you move it with your mouse, so yes, moving your mouse is skill.. I don't know how removing that would not remove skill.


Moving behind your opponent is an option I like, but not by running/jumping through. Instead, by moving around him quickly enough.

I don't really understand what you mean by that, why even need a lock on ability anyway? You talk about removing it by usuing different skills, like smoke bombs, but what difference would that make, its not like i can't re-lock the person, it would give him a few seconds to do what? Not be locked on? I will say it again, a lock-on ability, would remove the skill from the game how ever you put it, so what if i can you vanish like skills to remove it, I would still dissapear from his sight. How ever you think about it, it becomes to complicated to be used as a reliable system.


If you pay close attention to the posts I made and think a bit out of the box, you'll probably see you'd have great mobility.
Imagine actions you could have rather than just imagining negative aspects of an "empty" system.

It's to hard to know how a game would turn out with this system, since I have not seen one up and working. It's easier to imagine the simple problems, the system would cause. I can not go and imagine the more complicated problems, nor the good complicated parts, since I can not imagine any atm.

[Nurvus]

I kind of explained the lock on ability by now, but I'll reformulate:

1 - changes the movement commands to better suit one-on-one. From a WoW/GuildWars to a "sort of" DB Tenkaichi command style, where directions are concerned.

2 - Only makes some sense if there are different speeds for different agi vs con characters (agile/quick vs big/slow) where a big slow character might be very hard hitting, but a quick character might be able to avoid most or all of his attacks by not letting himself be caught within most/all attack reach.

Also would require that targetting with mouse would not be possible or limited to the same radius/distance as the targetting/lock-on keys.

3 - I Edited/updated the first post but I'll resume it here: during lock-on you'd follow the opponent's position at a rate reflected by your agi/con/training/skill.

Locking on (and targetting) Keys would only work on enemies within a certain radius in front of your character.
So if I manage to escape your line of sight, you lose lock-on/target.

Why? What for? What would be the purpose in that?

Imagine for a moment:
That skills don't automatically go towards your enemy;
That they don't automatically reach their target;
That they simply go towards the place your enemy was when you are done with delay/cast time OR just go in a line in front of you (maybe with a limited homing ability)
That facing your enemy is important to many/most abilities effects.

---------
This is just a conceptual idea for a new gameplay style.
There are tweaks that could be done to improve it, but I'm certain it's alot better than WoW/Guild Wars in every aspect.

In those games you have great freedom to move, but the targetting system is unreal. You target anyone, even if they are behind you or you don't see them quite well, just by pressing a Tab key.
Targetting should be limited. Ability to follow your opponent's movements should be limited, and ability to evade your perception should be limited as well.

In the end, if movement is well laid out, it CAN play a major factor in a game's combat mechanics, to the point it becomes actually intuitive and immersive, rather than just complex as initially seems.

WoW may seem complex in many of its features at first. You mentioned "keyboard turners" for a reason. Some people didn't adapt.

Actually, alot of things in wow changed because many people whined "this is too complicated, etc." and changes were made to accomodate babies, that make up more than 50% of those so called "assholes".

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Edit: but hey ;) I agree we disagree. Afterall, I'm not implying I know better what you or other people like. Sometimes different isn't exactly better or worse - It's just different.

I'm glad we can work out the differences, and it would be even better if we could give depth to the suggestions by imagining they might actually work with some tweaks.

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Try to consider this topic a "What would you change in gameplay controls?"

[Moloch]

Imagine for a moment:
That skills don't automatically go towards your enemy;
That they don't automatically reach their target;
That they simply go towards the place your enemy was when you are done with delay/cast time OR just go in a line in front of you (maybe with a limited homing ability)
That facing your enemy is important to many/most abilities effects.

Sounds like an FPS. Or in MMO terms, probably close to Darkfall's (supposed) combat system.

As for Creed, an artistic looking pile of crap, is still what it is.

[Nurvus]

Hey, I don't like the game either, but sure has some cool features to it.
Afterall, the trailers need something to get by and attract people, even if just for a while.