Design Decisions: PvP Rewards and Losses

[Will]

What are your personal thoughts on current reward systems and punishment systems in PvP games? Feel free to cite examples such as:

WoW's Honor System (Original and Revamped)
DAOC's Realm Point System
Everquest's PvP servers
Lineage II's system, including karma
UO's system, including karma
EQ2's system of status points, titles, and faction rewards.

Our goal at the moment is to offer rewards approximately equal to PvE rewards for raiding, both in difficulty of obtaining, rarity, quality, and quantity. We don't currently have plans for our basic servers offering player loot upon death. We work hard to obtain the loot we get, but some feel a punishment on death is necessary.

My personal beliefs are that death should be meaningful. Title's are an easily implemented reward/punishment, that will never effect anything, but are savagely defended by those who value their accomplishment. We will simply refer to them as I did, with "Title Princess".

I enjoyed UO's system, but feel that a growing emphasis on constant advancement in player gear, and limited item replacement has left no space for that system. Likewise with Eve's system, which is fairly similar (You explode and drop a few items, ultimately losing everything, but insurance can cover the cost of the ship. Death is nearly meaningless if you equip yourself poorly, but devastating if you're in excellent gear or have an expensive ship)

The flip side of death penalties, is that players are bound to be camped at some point in their playtime, or be repeatedly killed in some manner. Daoc almost did away with corpse camping/bind camping, because you couldn't really camp a spawn, only the entrance gates to the keep they were bound in. The solution most games offer is to remove penalties and rewards within a certain timeframe, which gives a sense that there's "nothing to lose" for the formerly dead combatant. This results in a wonderful game mechanic exploit, known as "bind rushing", which I'd love to do away with entirely. Again, DAOC solved this problem fairly well, atleast on normal servers.

Our ultimate goal, of course, is to offer a fun experience for everyone, without making anything too drastic in either direction for the gamer. We don't want them to "ruin" their character with a bad string of PvP deaths, and we don't want victorious players to have too large an edge over the losers, which will result in more and more lopsided victories.

So, with all of that in mind, what do our fans think of existing PvP rewards/penalty systems, and what would you do to change them, or create your own?

As always, try to post clear, concise representations without too many tangents or useless material.

[Mister Matt]

Could you kinda explain what that a reward system (I'm a newb when it comes to MMOs) so that I can put in my input.

[a chewy rock]

It would be hard for me to say since I don't really play subscription games that I can compare anything too.

[Valkazon]

DAoC realm points added a decent way for toons to develop, but as seems to be the case imho, games like that which have specific character classes and only a set number of the RP abilities available to them sends people of looking for the best cookie cutter build or what have you. Veer off the path to spec in something else because it seemed interesting to you, apart from the derision from some players, you find yourself not quite up there in the damage stakes etc and so PvP becomes less fun than it should be. That said, role play servers can be different.
Seems to be little in the way of truly making characters as to how you want them to be skilled and still being effective.
(I know things have changed of late with the latest expansions for DAoC).

Personally I love titles and items especially when hard earned - much like the DAoC epic armour quests. However, again, there's sometimes that feeling like you have to do the epic quests to 'fit in' with other players - got to have the toughest armour, wpns etc just to keep up or stand a chance in PvP. Maybe it's that end-game mentality, I don't know. Titles should be more than just a title , they should have something more tangible for the player like enhanced abilities/skills, or access to the ability to enter places that others can't etc.

The single largest turn off for me of a game has to be player looting - hate it, hate it, hate it. Sure there should be some form of death penalty - but please not that one. Unless of course you can set an /on - /off switch so those players that really want it can have it.
I think CoH/CoV was ok with it's exp debt. You had to work that off before making positive exp. Knowing what a pain that could be sometimes after a quick succession of multiple deaths sure did focus my mind and change my game play - kind of refreshing to actually run away once in a while rather than just being a hack 'n slash (much like DDO, a bit more tactical that one).

The DAoC PvP death penalty, well a minor hinderance really - you go back to your bind stone (if not rezzed) wait out the rez sick and off you go again. PvE - back to bind stone, find a healer to get you Con etc back (normally right by the bind stones) and off you go again. Costs a little money for the healer each time and this goes up proportionally to your lvl. Lost some exp but could regain it by praying at you headstone which marks the location of where you died. All very easy and meaningless really, just a bit annoying because you have to travel back to where you were hunting etc.

Different penalties for PvP and PvE? I think so. PvE is more 'controllable' by the player - you find good places to pull from etc and can largely direct how a fight will go - so if you die maybe a larger penalty. In PvP anything can happen really - so maybe the penalty should be less here.
Not sure about FFA servers but for role play ones how about the actual loss of character limb(s). Could be replaced with prosthetics/cyborg implants, or even magically 'regrown'. Ok, not a death penalty strictly speaking but just something else to throw into the mix.

Hmmm, I'll think more on this thread and come back - it's a damn good topic.

[Ziegler]

I'll throw this out there just to kink up the thought process for you Will.


Why do we punish death and not reward living?

Instead of punishing on death, say for each death you inflict you get a small bonus that stacks to a cap?

that can be in the form of a buff of XP, gold, to hit, defense....many different things, and you could even space them out over diferent things....
5 deaths,you get a 5% bonus to XP til you die/log off/4 hours.
10 deaths, you get a 10% bonus to gold found.
20 deaths, you get a To Hit bonus of 5%

The issue with this is of course, stat padding. Only one death per enemy per X amount of time to keep you and a friend killing eacch other to up stats.

[Rhiannon]

I do not have much experience with gaming so this is just some of my own thoughts and ideas I thought may be useful.

PK-ING Penalties
Being a victim of death if in PK mode, (which should be on/off as mentioned above) the player should only have minor penalties. Such as a timed decrease in stats that will only be in effect for that time period say 30 seconds. If they get killed again while already being in the duration of a penalty there should be no additional consequences. Maybe there can be a mode of some kind of sickness from coming back from the dead which will be applied once the victim has respawned.

From the PKers point of view, if they are going on a rampage slaughtering all in sight they should have a penalty for decrease in movement/stamina as well as a decrease in accuracy.

If the pker is targeting obviously lower leveled players there should be a system where the penalties are more severe. Which will make players more apt to stay away from noob towns when in a kill kill mode. Fairy equal PvP would cause the attacker less damage to his own stats after the battle has finished. These penalties should come into effect after the first kill has been made. Which would also weaken this player and disable him/her from doing too much damage.

Those without PK mode on if attacked should gain a temporary buff that increases their defensive stats. This should take effect once the player is killed so they have more of a chance defending themselves if they encounter the user again.

Overall with all of these rules if enforced, individual Pking will be a less popular form of battling it out.

PK-ing- areas & mapping
The PK mode wouldn't apply to the FFA server because that is pking enabled everywhere correct? So the PK mode option would be available to the other servers that aren't enforcing or aimed at killing other players.

Areas that are engaged towards PvP should have different rules. Once in that area PK mode is automatically established. This does not concern the sieging of factions or objectives, and tourny arena. That is if battlegrounds will be applied elsewhere. Mainly this is focusing on the outskirts of towns and vast lands. Areas only adventurers dare to explore :)

These areas should be swarmed with mobs to encourage group activity instead of soloing. In case of PvP players would want to make sure they bring their buddies with them in defense. This way the battle would be aimed towards multi player combat.

Multi-Player Combat Penalties
In a group the PvP system is more expandable. Penalties should be less severe but more so aimed towards what was accomplished. You think players will play righteous and fair, but not all will...

Equal in number an ability should be an honorable act. Level gaps should have a median set so this may be possible. There needs to be a code or display available to let each team know who they stand a chance against.

For combat that takes place which is unfair, the entire group should have a debuff set for an extended period of time in which they cannot take part in PvP. Maybe their respawning period can be more tedious and prolonged.

All defeats should have a reward, though the level gaps should make it so that there is an average to each team. The difference should calculate the winners temporary group buff. If it was unfair lets say it would only be a one minute teaser.

Rewards
Group Buffs:
If a battle is won fairly the whole group should get a buff. This buffs length should depend on how fair the battle was. Averages of each team should set if the win was an accomplishment, a miracle, or unfair.

Different buffs should be applied to what race they were battling. Which would make the rewarding of buffs drastically more interesting. Each races buff should be similar but aid the other races main battling tactics.

The duration of buffs could last merely 5 minutes -> 10 hours. Suggesting the range should be widely represented.

Honer & Karma:
Each character should start with a fixed numerical value. The honer system would work hand in hand with karma. Each time a battle is engaged this point system will change depending on the outcome. Once again this should depend on the difficulty of combat. Though what is different here is if the level gap is too far off and is seen as an unfair win the defeated will have no change in their honer, as it would if they lost to a fair fight (which would drop their honer). The winners would see their foolish actions and have an increase in honer but a drop in karma.

Maybe honer can award players more options in game for showing off their status. Such as faction emblems, armor upgrades, and taking on secret objectives that reward handsomely.

Karma should have great variations in game too. For example not being able to take on certain quests if your karma is doing bad. Though if your karma is doing quite well than you have access to sacred items in shops, the option to speak with higher ranked NPCs, explore exclusive grounds etc.

Money/Betting:
Before each battle there should be an option to put up stakes if desired. This is where money and items can be rewarded, by the players themselves. In this case it would bring more functionality to the rewards system, as well as a lot more fun!

Tokens:
Certain PvP events or objectives should offer each team the right to retrieve tokens once they triumph. These tokens can be exchanged to battle out higher ranked factions once they get to the acquired level, secretly access the opposing factions homeland, or take on bosses.
Just an idea, but it seems pretty fresh.

That is all I can think of right now...I wrote a little too much and I hope I brought in some good ideas...Not so knowledgeable on how well or possible this would all be though lol :P

[Moloch]

Imo you want a system that provides both personal reward (extrinsic motivation) and communal reward (intrinsic).

Personal. The right to loot the corpse. Anything that's carried except what’s equipped (because it appears clear that there won't be SB-like equipment rolling vendors and banks). To add to this as a game mechanic promoting conflict have the corpse NOT become lootable by the killer until a certain time limit has expired ... the limit is relative to distance from your spawn point plus some extra time to allow you to call reinforcements. The killer then has to defend their corpse or lose their reward.

Whatever you do, PLEASE do not make PvP rewards another form of grinding for gear ala WoW.

Communal: Inter-server. Servers are divided into tiers. The top tier has only one server on it, lower tiers have more than one. As your PvP accomplishments grow, your guild (or you if unguilded) is automatically promoted. Conversely, if you are a bottom feeder on a server you get demoted to the lower tier. Promotions/demotions occur on a (say) monthly basis. This system has the advantage of balancing ‘skill’ levels and encouraging community through guilding. This unequivocally determines game bragging rights.

Communal: Intra-server. Each server has a number of guild ‘base’ structures. The type of structure that a guild inhabits is a reflection of it’s intra-server PvP accomplishment (no reason why there shouldn’t be a merchant’s quarter that similarly recognises economic achievements. Types of structure might range from ‘hovel’ to ‘longhouse’ to ‘manor’ to ‘castle’ and give increasing access to guild related functions and possibly the ability to modify socio-political rulesets. Ownership of these structures is determined on a monthly basis, with ‘promotion’ or ‘demotion’ possible. (Sieges of these structures doesn’t occur – sieges occur to contest or destroy economic, political or social nodes of control that have to be built by guilds/individuals to exploit a resource). This unequivocally determines server bragging rights.

And – while it’s OT - if you’re not going to have PvP servers, then have a choosable PvP ‘mode’ in PvE servers. Your character is now D2 ‘hardcore’ (ie. permadeath) but levels significantly faster than PvE toons.

[Moloch]

Some comments about some of the ideas in this thread (not personal - my observations)

Why do we punish death and not reward living? Games do both. Living is rewarded through exp and loot. If you reward me for death I’ll exploit the system until my eyes bleed.

If the pker is targeting obviously lower leveled players there should be a system where the penalties are more severe. Which will make players more apt to stay away from noob towns when in a kill kill mode. Simply restrict zones to players of a certain level range – or learn to organise.

If there is a selectable PvP mode, I’ll exploit this by having non-PvP enabled players scouting and reporting so my PK-enabled toons can hit where it hurts.

Equal in number an ability should be an honorable act. Level gaps should have a median set so this may be possible. Couldn’t disagree more. Concentrating overwhelming force at a specific time and place is an operational art, what you call ‘honorable’ I call poor planning. Alternatively, some of the finest moments in human history have occurred when a seemingly doomed force fights against the odds. The Spartans at Thermopylae; the English at Rouke’s drift; the French Foreign Legion at Hacienda Camarón; and Gordon and Shughart in Mogadishu to name a few.

Rewards that include a buff reinforce the defeat of the losing side. If it doesn’t it’s a debuff and a disincentive to win. I’ll exploit that by losing small battles that don’t matter before my main push that does.

Money/betting – doesn’t require a system, merely an agreement and a neutral holder of the reward. That’s the way we do it in WoW and it works. It’s like ante-ing in Magic though … how many people do it in social play? With FFA you make it so that you ‘bet’ your held, non-equipped items every time you leave your base. And for all you RPers, think of this as a mechanic to encourage gentlemanly highwaymen ;)

Tokens to unlock game content or gain an in-game advantage are a grind. It’s the WoW’s PvP reward system regurgitated and I’d rather lick the floor of a taxi cab than be put through that again.

[Will]

Lots to do, and lots to cover, so I'll be brief.

Let me start by saying that leaderboards are a given, as are in-depth statistics. As a 100% stat whore, I will absolutely positively push all the way for some quality stat records. If I have the best accuracy or longest kill streak, I want people to know it!

I like the idea of ranking guilds (and servers) amongst one another, as long as it isn't too close to WoW's awful system (regression for lack of time /played... brilliant!). Your Promotions/Demotions idea is good, as long as they don't count for anything too important.


I definitely have been thinking that prolonged win streaks should be rewarded in some small way. The only problem with "staying alive" buffs/titles, is that it discourages fighting, but there may yet be a way to accomplish it without doing so.

PvP loot is very subjective, and the odds are decent that our release FFA server will have some form of item loot, but that's it. The server isn't for everyone, but the bonds it builds and the drama that comes with it is just too much fun to exclude. Item loot suggestions needed, because we haven't put a wink of thought into it. I personally liked EQ2's, but lose the restriction on legendary+ loot. (EQ2-PvP: You drop 25-50% of your coins, and a 20%-ish chance to drop an item you have in your bags, as long as that item isn't legendary or higher)

Hardcore/Permadeath server is a fun thought. A lot of people had fun when EQ1 did one, and I wish I had the chance to check it out to give some feedback.


Group Buffs:
If a battle is won fairly the whole group should get a buff. This buffs length should depend on how fair the battle was. Averages of each team should set if the win was an accomplishment, a miracle, or unfair.

Different buffs should be applied to what race they were battling. Which would make the rewarding of buffs drastically more interesting. Each races buff should be similar but aid the other races main battling tactics.

The duration of buffs could last merely 5 minutes -> 10 hours. Suggesting the range should be widely represented.

Expect to see this in some form or another, but determining difficulty of an encounter will be tough to pull off without a bazillion possible exploits.

[Valkazon]

Communal: Inter-server. Servers are divided into tiers. The top tier has only one server on it, lower tiers have more than one. As your PvP accomplishments grow, your guild (or you if unguilded) is automatically promoted. Conversely, if you are a bottom feeder on a server you get demoted to the lower tier. Promotions/demotions occur on a (say) monthly basis. This system has the advantage of balancing ‘skill’ levels and encouraging community through guilding. This unequivocally determines game bragging rights.


Kinda like the idea but would server swapping raise issues where players become unable to group with non-guilded friends etc? Could use a server cluster option like DAoC to enable people to freely move between servers but that then gets away from the tier structure, at the top level anyway.

Re player looting, how about having it so that you don't physically lose your items, but the victorious person still has the ability to 'loot' you - but they don't get items they get experience of what they just fought against ie type of armour, wpns, styles etc. This experience is then added as a temporary defense buff whenever that person comes up against any or all of those items again. Buff to be a variable amount based on what you come up against again eg if it was just that type of wpn then say a 5% defense buff, if it was that wpn and armour then 10% and so on.
The buff would only work in 1 on 1 situations maybe 2 on 1??? anyway, adjusted to reflect the situation. Not stackable either, ie if it was a 2 on 1 and they both had same equipment you only get the buff once not twice.
The experience is permanent and grows as you encounter and defeat more.
Could maybe change the rate of gaining experience, would need to come up against certain items more than once to learn from it.

Could be exploited by the usual two friends scenario.

[Ziegler]

I definitely have been thinking that prolonged win streaks should be rewarded in some small way. The only problem with "staying alive" buffs/titles, is that it discourages fighting, but there may yet be a way to accomplish it without doing so.

I am thinking this might be too much to have to track, but what if the deaths have a timers on them?

So that each death you inflict counts for X amount of hours(this could be tied to the level of the person you killed as well, higher level than you stays around for longer.) So that you end up with a running list.

This would encourage you to be active, and if inactive, then you loose.

Looting:
Either of these two ways I would agree with. (% gold doesnt work, I will not carry any, unless you are going to take it out of my bank account)

Random pick from inventory.
Or
Player must pick a certain minimum amount of GP value in items, determined by skill, if you wear a bunch of cheap stuff, then you will end up selecting all of your equipped items. (sorta the ante up solution, and one I like)

[Rhiannon]

Moloch I rethought things out, and yeah...People would definantly exploit the system than. Though the scouts wouldn't be able to get back to you if certain zones were automatically PvP based and PK mode was enabled. If that is so people who aren't interested in this kind of gameplay they probablly wouldn' t be there unless they want to get into something they wish they never came across :P

I wouldn't like to see areas restricted from higher level players, I think it should be a free world to roam about through. The thing is sometimes I like going back to the newbie towns, helping people out and remembering the good ole' days. I can see lower level players not being allowed in areas because they cannot even survive 10 seconds of clicking. Maybe there is another vice that we aren't seeing that they will bring out in the game, hopefully it will bring everything together.

I think you mis-understood me here, I was a little confussed myself when I was writing though hehe. If the defeated were based higher by far, the system should reward them the most out of any scenerio. Agree with your references ;)

Yeah your right! I never got that far into the game to really be in full blown out battles, but I can imagine they get really involving and fun :P Betting should be initially brought in by the players, but a little system I wouldn't mind at all, didn't really think about that *blushes*.

Hrmm maybe not so doing this over an over again to get a reward. I was thinking more on the lines of certain given objectives which is stated in the FAQs section which I am really thinking about, what does that really mean...Hrmm this game is getting better an better *cackles*.

Yeah, really delving into the issue Will now that I think of it coding that into game can be difficult lol. For what if another team ploys there way through the crowd and happens to be one of the factions alliances, an bam the losing team has a strong disadvantage. Hrmm, who knows :/ Though I know you guys can figure it out!

Very interesting topic, keep it coming guys :)