Just a few thoughts

[Valkazon]

Firstly, apologies if anything here (or similar) has been covered elsewhere - I've not managed to get through all the posts yet, nearly but not quite.

Anyway, just a few ideas I thought I'd throw out there to bounce around.

Tactical skill
Not sure what you have planned obviously but I was thinking of roles players could take that wouldn't necessarily mean they have to be brilliant FPS types, and I started toying with the idea of an engineer class/skill.

Here's a little scenario of how it could work:

A group of humans are controlling a mine that is an important mineral source. Clearly they want to try and protect this asset so an engineer (with the right skills, materials etc) is able to set up defenses, ie some form of land mine, maybe a small scale surface to air missile launcher to shoot those pesky Devas, automated gun turrets etc, even maybe barricades (can be destroyed by enemy fire). The more he practices it the more advanced items he can lay, more damage output etc.

Anyway, along come a band of Al'Gar and commence an attack on the mine. Some maybe killed by the defenses so that player gets rewarded. Alternatively instead of being fire and forget type defenses, maybe the engineer needs to control them from a distance ie detonate the mines at the appropriate moment.

Another idea
That same band of Al'Gar have made it through the outer defenses and are now in the mine. This then turns into effectively a PvP dungeon.
For these events I was thinking about maps. The humans who are currently controlling the mine (ie defenders) would have a tactical/mini map that shows the whole mine - whereas the attackers would get the same map but with fog of war active. So all they see is where they explore. Perhaps, due to engineer defenses, the map also has a pulsing scan system (like radar) that locates the enemy.
This would give the defenders the upper hand in setting more defenses in appropriate places, which in theory would be about right as they would know the lay of the land as it were, and the Al'Gar are essentially coming into this blind with no prior knowledge of layout etc so would need much greater care on what they do rather than just rushing in and blowing everything up - but hey, they're Al'Gar so they would do that regardless :rolleyes:


And there's more
Seeing the artworks for the cities just gives loads of plot ideas and scenarios, which I won't bore you with, but I can't help thinking you could spend an age just doing missions and story arcs just in these - they could be soooo good. Anyway, Al'Gar, how about a shapeshifting ability/class whatever you want to flag it under.
Could be fun to infiltrate other cities. Maybe an NPC has already done this and you are tasked with hunting it down, following the trail of it's assassinations as you try to uncover the plot.
But on a PC side of things, again, the more you use it the better you become. Perhaps you can only get this at mid levels upwards? To start with it's on a timer of how long you can shapeshift which increases as you get better. Or if you engage in combat you come out of it, alternatively maybe you can stay shifted when fighting but you have a percentile chance of coming out of it due to bloodlust or something - chances decrease as you improve.

Anyway, enough ramblings for now - more later, unless of course you think I'm way of track here in which case I'll shut up lol.

Valk

[a chewy rock]

I like the idea of the defense in the mine with the attacking faction having the fog of war and the defenders having the whole layout and advantage. I think it should definately be harder to retake something once you lose it.

Good idea Valkazon.

[Ziegler]

How about, the defenders know the place, because they actually built it from the ground up/down(building/underground complex)

[Will]

Mines are going to be important positions to hold in order to keep your industry going strong. Players familiar with Eve will understand this easily. So expect a lot of PvP going on there, and a lot of efforts to keep your mines going strong. I like the general idea of an engineer set of abilities, we had originally planned on requiring crafters to erect structures and lay down defenses. We're also discussing a kind of "tactical command" set of skills as well, for the support and guild leader types. Think a mixture of a raid leader from WoW/EQ, and a fleet commander from EvE.

I'm torn on allowing access to cities. It's going to be a very cool idea to allow Deva/Algar an easy way into the city via the seedy underground districts, but it's also a dangerous proposition for our poor newbie folks who will be questing down there. A whole mess of folks will use it for griefing, but I suppose if there were proper rewards based on region killed, a player down in your main city might draw you out of the bank for some fun. Just trying to protect the little guy, but we'll see.

Some good ideas, though.

[Valkazon]

We're also discussing a kind of "tactical command" set of skills as well, for the support and guild leader types. Think a mixture of a raid leader from WoW/EQ, and a fleet commander from EvE.

And maybe a hint of commander from BF2?

I'm torn on allowing access to cities. It's going to be a very cool idea to allow Deva/Algar an easy way into the city via the seedy underground districts, but it's also a dangerous proposition for our poor newbie folks who will be questing down there. A whole mess of folks will use it for griefing, but I suppose if there were proper rewards based on region killed, a player down in your main city might draw you out of the bank for some fun. Just trying to protect the little guy, but we'll see.

Agreed, could be a fine line. However with regards to the newbie folk you could always zone your cities a little like City of Heroes when it warns you about certain areas you are about to enter (althought not PvP granted)
but you know some areas are going to be hard/minimum lvl requirement to enter (could change that to minimum player security status perhaps?). Could also treat a few specific areas like DAoC frontiers in so far as Al'Gar etc could penetrate in a certain distance but then defenses are just too tough to go any further. Low/newbies could quest there but they know the risks - counter it with bigger gains though and it could be interesting.
I know what you are saying about griefers and campers also but I've always found that after a few kills they are pretty much routinely hunted down by higher lvl toons anyway.

[Valkazon]

Anyway, Al'Gar, how about a shapeshifting ability/class whatever you want to flag it under.


A few more thoughts.

Could have an enhanced human ability of psionics/psychics that enable them to detect these kinda things. Obviously including this opens a whole range of offense and defense skill sets as well.

Shapeshifting could also be an interesting tactic for PvP. To your own kind you still show up as 'friendly' even though you look human or whatever, but to factions you would seem as one of their own not just from looks but perhaps from colour of name (ie enemy players show up as red, friendly green etc). Infiltration at it's best.

- Interesting alternative to the traditional stealth class.
- Could restrict access to city zones etc by saying you are only taking on the appearance of another faction and don't have their items ie security passes or whatever, or even that some things require retinal scans and it would detect you are of a different faction, or have detection devices/psychics at strategic locations...
- Timers and problems for using the ability as per original post.
- Language barriers (you think he's ignoring you, well actually he doesn't understand what you are saying and if he speaks back it'll blow his cover)



Also, for PvP and PvE how about a charm kind of ability for Devas and Al'Gars. I'm thinking that it would mainly be used on humans, but not to make them controllable but just temporarily altering their alignment as it were.
(It's a bit like the picture of a someone with a devil on one shoulder and an angel the other - both whispering in to his ears with suggestions)
This kinda links in a bit with the thread about Karma.
So for instance a Deva using it on an NPC you could 'persuade' them that good is the way to go and they may then help you in a fight against an opposing Al'Gar character.
When used on player characters a similar effect as above, or it could turn you into an ally temporarily so they wouldn't attack you.
Any damage received from the 'controlling' faction would instantly break the effect.
Can only be used once on a person within a set time period.
It can always be resisted by comparing lvl's/ability score/amount of willpower/items etc. Failed attempts could mean the victim targeting you as the enemy (possibly with bonuses to hit and/or dmg) - this would possibly reduce the risk of players spamming it, and also by the re-use timer.

[darkaao]

When talking about PVP you cant be on 24/7 to protect your mine so is there going to be some sort of system where they can only attack at a certain time? So if they attack and break your defense's you cant be there to help protect it.

[Will]

I'm somewhat torn on the timezone difference issue. On one hand, there's something to be said for the guild who can muster up forces in the wee hours of the night and make sure they have everything under control. On the other hand, the easy, practical answer is to recruit more people than you want.

Guard NPC's will be a major factor in the game. As will Sentry gun emplacements and other defense mechanisms. Ultimately, we'll need to develop a good balance between NPC defenses and player attack abilities, because we want to promote fair sieges, and avoid a situation where the only POSSIBLE way to succesfully take a location is to wait until the enemy is out of game. That isn't making any progress in gameplay, so we're still working out some answers. My first thoughts are to boost your NPC guard's stats given the total number of players in your guild and online. To a point, of course.

Suggestions are welcome, as we've been busy with a dearth of other issues and haven't really sat down to "solve" this problem, so to speak.

[Valkazon]

Or guild leaders/officers have the ability to buy/rent extra npc resources to bolster defense - rent a mob, build your own private army - varying costs depending on their abilities and lvl etc. Cap limits perhaps to prevent the larger more wealthy players/guilds from becoming too powerfull and dominating? I'm sure some would say "why can't we hire more npcs etc". Difficult. Hmmm love figuring out how to solve balance issues... Oooh, just thought, a problem with that 'buying help' function could be when these sites start springing up offering in-game money for RL money - and I'm sure they'd find a way to sell whatever form of currency you implement. A form of trade/swapping/bartering would be maybe harder? but I guess they'd start selling ore by the ton or something.

Could have an in-game alert system that notifies you when you are out of game, ie via MSN messenger or equivelant, when a structure owned by you is under attack. Ok, doesn't help when you have logged off for the night but it's just another little something that some may find handy.

If you want to go that bit further and look at alternatives, as it's part sci-fi, how about an option for player characters to clone themselves (probably for a substantial fee, depends on balance issues I guess).The clones would remain at the structure purely for defense purposes only and would basically be an NPC but would have your skill set.
They would come in to force once you have logged out (in the same location) and deactivate when you log back in - unless of course the structure has been attacked and it died during that melee, or the owners of the structure have decided to relinquish control etc.
Could be issues with people exploiting it eg to avoid PvP death. Maybe add timers so the clone activates a set period after you log out, or you could say that as part of the cloning process a part of you (in whatever form - spiritually or whatever) is in the clone, so if it dies you suffer some form of penalty eg temporary skill/stat decrease.
Maybe worth having it deactivate also if you try to log back in on a different character but on the same account. Multiple accounts, different story, can't do much about that, but then it's not like a bot so doesn't matter?

You would need to actually be somewhere inside the structure or outside in close proximity to the entrance of the structure in order for it to be activated.
No experience or rewards gained for your true character from anything they kill (or kill assist) etc. Maybe there could be gains but personally I'd see this clone thing as a one way street. You can transfer your knowledge and experience to them but not vice versa. But that then goes against the clone death penalty - if there was one.

Bah, sorry, I could waffle on for ages with suggestions for things.

Damn, I love a good brainstorm ;D

[Will]

Well, Eve's solution is to put their Player owned Structures into "Reinforced mode", and require an amount of fuel to keep that up. In reinforced mode, the enemy can't destroy it. So you adjust the amount of fuel and everyone knows exactly when the battle will take place. It doesn't fit into our system as well, but some kind of sovereignity requirement with a time limit is probably the way to go. SB had a similar system, they just screwed up hardcore because you could destroy the entire town that night, and come back with no walls remaining and a walk through the park.

I'm sure there's a good idea, and I'm not particular happy with the existing solutions out there. I just want to get away from the "avoid a fair/difficult fight" mentality that is associated with most sieging in games.

[Moloch]

Three alternatives that come to mind ...

1. Siege timeframes differentiated by server. So that when you roll a toon you know when that Server’s action is going to be taking place. The siege windows would be wider on weekends.

2. Siege timeframes where the attacker can set the time for attack on everything but the Keep (ToL) equivalent. The defender, however sets the time for attack on this most important asset.

3. Make the right to set the siege time dependant on in-game achievement, so that the right to set the time of each siege becomes an in game, enabling goal.

Or change the system altogether, in that the guild’s ‘home’ base is unable to be destroyed (where the bank, armoury or whatever other functions you have are run from). But the guild’s possessions (resource nodes etc) are in contested zones and can be fought over at any time. The number and ‘power’ of these possessions could then be reflected in the size, appearance and/or location of the guild’s home base (eg. in the slums or in a castle on a cliff) which is determined (say) monthly.

[Will]

What we came up with last night as similar to that. A "Piechart" as Damon liked calling it, that allows you to set a 6 hour window. This is set weekly, and during that time, your base defenses and possibly other features will be inactive. The time won't be known to other guilds. The goal is to have your guild leader set the time to a time when your guild is most active, and utilize the sentry guns and NPC Guards to be active and available when your guild is not. It will require some tweaking, and the end result may be that the base is significantly more difficult to siege during offhours, or as harsh as not allowing destruction of anything at all. We haven't really decided, but it will be a work in progress until we can get stuff like that implemented. And that's a long time down the road.

Keep it up though, some interested ideas.

[darkaao]

That sounds like a good idea too me.

[Valkazon]

Kinda like that idea Will. Can see that working.

One thing that did send warning bells to me when I first read it, but thinking on it doesn't now, was the early EQ thing where people were literally in a queue to fight a named mob etc. Just had visions of a rival guild(s) standing there waiting for the timer to run out or something before commencing an attack knowing it'll be slightly easier - having the time period as a moveable thing helps.

Other thoughts to throw into the melting pot:
- as opposed to previously mentioned buying of npc etc, allow guilds an extra npc based on a ratio of guild members (not alts) ie 1 additional npc for your base defense per every 3 guildies
- For resource player controlled locations, how about having the ownership of those set to a random amount of time from say 1 week upwards. The thought being a) takes the pressure off a bit of having a fair PvP environment because they are going to lose control of it anyway at some point, b) the reason for a random amount of time could be used to signify that all of the resources from that location have been spent/recovered etc, c) if any of these locations are in same faction only (safe) zones and not on a FFA server then potentially the first guild or whoever to capture a location is going to keep it and no-one else gets a look in because they can't attack them? Not sure if that part is totally correct but if it is then at least other people could get a shot at taking ownership.

[Damon]

This is probably the most critical part of our thoughts right now keep this up. The sieging is one of the biggest parts of Kaos War.
Because let me state, in Kaos there will be Permanent consequences to PVP. In Permanent I mean when you down an enemy fortress it is destroyed not reset. But how hard is it to take down a fortress? ******* hard. It is going to take a well oiled guild to take down other guilds as to defend.

There will be stages to a siege to lengthen the “Window of Opportunity” more on this later. When your guild destroys an enemy it will be a accomplishment you will all remember or when you defended a great siege that seemed lost.

We are really adamant to get this right the first time.

[Valkazon]

Sorry Damon, not quite sure - are you saying you kinda now have a direction hence 'more on this later' or do you still want thought put into this subject?

[Ziegler]

ok, here is my thoughts on the pi chart idea.....cause....who the hell doesnt like pi?

If the attacker....attacks an unmanned keep...they can only progress so far, say to the inner gates....
At this point they get a message that the gates are sealed...but that they should be opened at .....what ever time the defender has chosen as his open window.

This way, the opposing guild can learn what time to attack to gain control of the keep.

This of course requires the defender to be locked into a certain time frame. These need to be on independant timers for each keep so as not to be predictable.

When the defender chooses a time frame in the day....he can choose how long to have that window last....
To encourage longer times, make the factory processing become more effecient the longer the time frame stay.
5 days....5% increased production rate.
15 days....then 15 % for the last 10 days, 5% for the first 5.
30 days.....30% for the last 15 days.

This of course gives your enemies more time to plan and coordinate as well. And more enemies to find out too.

Now, just so I am clear, are we talking only the three cities, so that this will be stricly a faction based issue? Or is the game aligned more along guildlines?
If Faction based, then who is going to decide the time frame?

Since you are saying sieges will have a big emphasis...I am going to see if I can nail you guys to a cross here or not.. >:D
Will there be anything to limit or balance the defenders against the attackers, in at least numbers alone, to prevent the Zerg? As in, attackers have 50 people, defenders have 25, they get 25 NPC's?

I'll wrap up for now.

[Valkazon]

What about sharing the load - you could make the more remote fortresses as Alliance controllable only for instance. So basically you have more than one guild responsible for defense and upkeep.

As you pull back to zones closer to home as it were, these fortresses can be owned by singule guilds, maybe because it's a bit safer due to more patrolling guards or something - which may make it a little harder for the attackers to get to and demolish other guilds buildings.

[Damon]

Now, just so I am clear, are we talking only the three cities, so that this will be stricly a faction based issue? Or is the game aligned more along guildlines?
If Faction based, then who is going to decide the time frame?

Since you are saying sieges will have a big emphasis...I am going to see if I can nail you guys to a cross here or not.. >:D
Will there be anything to limit or balance the defenders against the attackers, in at least numbers alone, to prevent the Zerg? As in, attackers have 50 people, defenders have 25, they get 25 NPC's?

I'll wrap up for now.

We aren't talking about 3 cities but multiple guild owned structures.
The guild leadership decide time frames.


Don't worry about nailing us to a cross. Our Zerg countermeasures go beyond anything like you are saying. It is based in our core design from the start. Is it the all time answer to zergs? We don't know but it seems to make sense to us, and when you guys test we will see.

[Ziegler]

ok, good deal. I wasnt sure how your guys feelings on the Zerg is, some people consider it a valid attack....We certainly did in D-Day.

[Valkazon]

This is probably the most critical part of our thoughts right now keep this up. The sieging is one of the biggest parts of Kaos War.
Because let me state, in Kaos there will be Permanent consequences to PVP. In Permanent I mean when you down an enemy fortress it is destroyed not reset. But how hard is it to take down a fortress? ******* hard. It is going to take a well oiled guild to take down other guilds as to defend.

There will be stages to a siege to lengthen the “Window of Opportunity” more on this later. When your guild destroys an enemy it will be a accomplishment you will all remember or when you defended a great siege that seemed lost.

We are really adamant to get this right the first time.

Will it always be a case of destroying the enemy fortress or can you actually do it a little more tactfully so that there is something left that you can then take ownership of / build and develop further - kinda like player looting on a grand scale?

[Moloch]

Hopefully the 'ownership' of the land or resource (assuming you can then rebuild) is reward enough. Rebuilding costs are also a value sink that I believe players will not resent.

[ToN]

i was thinking it would be nice to have an in-game day split

-when the red moon is up the algar may seige
-when the white moon is up its the deva's turn (my fav factions :D)
-and the humans strike during the day

just a thought

[a chewy rock]

Should be able to do what you want, when you want, in my opinion.

[GaretJax]

What happens if a server becomes overly congested with just humans, they start taking over different parts of the lands and become a monopoly in the world? Would more NPC's come out to combat these people and drive them back to make it a fair fight? Whats to keep each server balanced so that one side doesn't outweigh the others?