Why guns?

[Spunky]

Is it just me or should the ranged weapons not be bows and crossbows not guns. Like this is a fantasy game I know, but why guns seems like an age to bows to me.

[Spartan]

ummmmmm. Am I the only person that thinks what he said makes no sense.

The game is set on a different world, or a different universe/dimension. The Time Period, has no effect on an alternate reality. Swords, Guns, Bows, Canons, Spears, etc. Anything they can think up is exceptable. Unless their publishers say "NO" with big capital letters.

Angels/Demons with Guns = a Chocolate Chip Cookie.

[a chewy rock]

Why does this game have to be like almost all other fantasy games? I think it'd be cool to see a mix of all the different types of weapons.

[Mister Matt]

ummmmmm. Am I the only person that thinks what he said makes no sense.

You're not alone Spartan.

And I like the idea of guns.

[Spartan]

I like Mecha.

Mecha = Guns, Robots, Armor, well, anything mechanical.
American definition of Mecha = HUGE MASSIVE DESTRUCTIVE KILL EVERYTHING ROBOTS. lol.

Matt, I still, after becoming somewhat awake, don't understand his sentence.

[a chewy rock]

I didn't really understand it either.

[Moloch]

It's not that difficult guys ....

Is it just me or should the ranged weapons in KW be bows and crossbows rather than guns? Like this is a fantasy game so why are guns included? It seems to me like KW is set in an age which is more suitable to bows and other older ranged weapons.

ESL is hard.

Anyways Spunky, KW is not a fantasy game it's an alternate reality with fantasy, SF, goth, and animated Disney elements. Another example of such a setting is Hellgate which uses some guns as a projector of spiritual force to hurt demons. The use of tech guns will also help distinguish the title from WoW and Warhammer.

BTW, I was joking about one of the elements influencing the game. There are absolutely no goth elements. At all.

[Valkazon]

Personally I love the mixed genre and think the inclusion of guns can be a good asset for a transition/link between them. Guns don't have to just fire bullets as we know them, they can have loads of other uses, energy (maybe even tainted with good or bad strains), particles, fire and other elemental forces, traps such as netting (metal wire netting to restrain and cut into your victim...) and so on.
Different weapons have different effects on things.

So much scope to be had, but that's not to say bows etc can't be just as effective - and they should be to make it a truly rounded multi genre game.

Just love that moment of panic when you see the monster in front of you standing there taking everything you can shoot at him and not flinching.

"We're not running away, it's a tactical withdrawal!!"

Oh and hi btw. Only just joined this community (wish I had started sooner)and I seriously like and am impressed with what I've seen and read so far.

Great work.

Valkazon

[Cady]

Welcome to the Legions Valkazon!

[hanstin]

sup valkazon welcome to teh legionz! aight

[a chewy rock]

Welcome to the Kaos Legions Valkazon!

[darkaao]

Welcome to Kaos War Valkazon, hope you enjoy the stay. ;D

[Rhiannon]

Welcome welcome...The more the merrier.

Since there are guns in this game, there should be nukes :P

[Ziegler]

I like guns....
I want a gun that shoots swords.

[Rhiannon]

I would try to catch the swords you shoot, because they are shiny & pretty...Hrmm good distraction technique.

[a chewy rock]

I think it'd be a better idea to dodge the sharp blades flying toward you than to try to catch them.....
A nuke would be a bit too much but maybe air strikes or something along that line.

[Rhiannon]

:/ Well...We should be able to use flowers with thorn as a weapon too :)

[Valkazon]

Guns can add a little spice to PvP - because theoretically you could have lowbie toons fighting shoulder to shoulder with high level ones with just as much chance of taking people down. It's not a strength based weapon per se, all that would be different is their chance of hitting the target (accuracy)and speed of use (Dex based). Damage would essentially be the same, generally speaking?
Is that likely to be the case do you know (if you can say :) ) ? Would seriously help with the community spirit of a guild imho.

[a chewy rock]

I would think that different guns would have different ranges, speeds, and accuracy while the type of rounds determine the amount of damage being dealt by the weapon itself. Is this how it'll work?

[Valkazon]

I would think that different guns would have different ranges, speeds, and accuracy while the type of rounds determine the amount of damage being dealt by the weapon itself. Is this how it'll work?

I agree totally, what I meant was a like for like ie a 6 lvl toon using the same gun as a 60lvl toon.

[Rhiannon]

That could work, though a level 60 should have some nice design on the gun to make it all prettiful. Maybe some blood stains or goo would do :P

[a chewy rock]

I can see that too. A gun is a gun and all it takes is a few pounds of pressure to squeeze the trigger and you get the same effect if a little scrawny weakling pulls the trigger as if a 400 pound man of pure muscle pulls the trigger. Physical strength would only affect recoil allowing you to fire with smaller intervals between shots and it could increase accuracy on guns with high recoil. There wouldn't be any damage difference though; it wouldn't make sense.

[Valkazon]

I can see that too. A gun is a gun and all it takes is a few pounds of pressure to squeeze the trigger and you get the same effect if a little scrawny weakling pulls the trigger as if a 400 pound man of pure muscle pulls the trigger. Physical strength would only affect recoil allowing you to fire with smaller intervals between shots and it could increase accuracy on guns with high recoil. There wouldn't be any damage difference though; it wouldn't make sense.

Exactly. Which is why I think it would work quite nicely (as well as deadly). I think when you consider things like PvP events eg fortress defence, it would really bring a sense of belonging to guild members. The low lvl toons get to fight with their high lvl buddies in defending their keep. Brilliant.
Too many times I've seen low lvl toons (usually belonging to new players) that get frustrated because they hardly ever get to do anything with the majority of the rest of the guild - more so when they are a well established guild because the lvl diversity precludes them from teaming up.
City of Heroes gets around this well with sidekicks and exemping.

Personally for guilds I've run or help run I've always tried to have a selection of alts at varying lvl ranges so I can group with other members as and when they want to, to try and make them feel part of the guild basically.

Having the chance to help out on guild activities as mentioned above has got to be a huge plus in my book. Hope it works out along those lines.

[jeroenverloop]

you can add at dexternity.
the higher you're dexternity gets the quicker you shout so it wont increase the damage of the bullets but you can just shoot more bullets

[Brionntateg]

Personally, I agree that guns don't seem a like a natural fit for this game. I'm hoping for a medieval ... ok medieval with a twist ::), gaming environment. Of course, I actually have a replica 15th century German hunting crossbow hanging in my bedroom (mine, not my husbands) ... and swords hang in the hallway (both of ours :)) so I'm fairly biased. I just know that I intentionally avoid mech games because I want to be in a completely different place and time when I game. My husband on the other hand loves all that stuff. He's a trained sniper and that all makes sense to him.

I do think that if you want a significant female population of players (a group that has not been well marketed to in the MMORPG world) ...fewer guns and more fantasy would probably up the appeal to that target group.

If anyone hasn't done so, you should look at Nick Yee's research on MMORPGs and the people who play them. He's made some wonderful observations on the impact and influence of games on people, as well as exploring their motivations to play. http://www.nickyee.com/

[Kayden]

Gah, my brother can wait.

You people keep me to interested in expanding in ideas. i like to add to the story(so to speak).

With a gun, like other weapons, your skill is what determines the damage. For example. If you weild a sword at lvl 60(if that was a lvl cap) against a person who is carring a gun aimed at you at lvl 1. Your more then likely to take some damage, but lets say this lvl 1 doesn't really know how to use a gun all that well(this is where weapon skills come into effect). Though the damage the lvl 60 will take from the gun will not change, but if the gun wielder who has no experince with the gun shots and misses the swords man is okay, he takes no damage. But if the gun weilder aims and fires and hits his target in, lets say, the shoulder. The sword weilder would take a portion of damage. Now if he is hit in a vital area he takes more damage. Thus keeping the realness of a game. Now most games don't have this. Its all based on str, dex, and con. Unless you happen to be someone who uses magic then it becomes Int, wis, and cha. They lose the reality of it all. "But its just a game." yes this maybe true but even games can have the real like quality to them.

Now if we get into the lines of being a alter-reality. A human shooting at a demon of higher lvl is alot harder. reason being because the demon has supernatural abilities that allow his relexes and other attributes to be highten. Thus allowing the demon to dodge a bullet or deflect the bullet with his sword. Now I never mentioned that our sword weilder is human. I just mentioned he carried a sword. So lets say he hears the gun fire, with his enhanced sense over the "years" of training. He is able to responed to the bullet coming at him. Allowing him to deflect or dodge it. Thus making the lvl generally what is the deference.

Though i'll have to agree having low lvled toons in a genreally high lvled guild isn't always the best thing cause then your stuck down at the bottom while your guildmates are doing end game stuff with out you.

My ideas for what the following attributes should be used for.
Strength: Allows the character to carry more equipment, weild heavier weapons and wear heavier armor. Is a small factor in weapon damage due to the ability to swing it easier.
Dexterity: Allows the character to move easier, is lighter on his feet and can move faster. Is a small factor in rate of attack, or rate of fire for guns, due to the speed he is capable of.
Constitution: This is the characters health and natural defence. For a character with high constitution can take more damage and keep on ticking.
Intelegence: This is the characters book knowledge, this allows the character to think faster and be more responsive to what is around him. He is able to read higher quality books and can be more comprehensive with other languages. Your general stuff for book magics.
Wisdom: This is the characters natural knowledge, thsi allows the character to see things in a different perspective. This attribute is generally more along the lines as the main attribute for a sorcerer. Because their powers are all natural born and not learned from books, this would be a good way for sorcerers to tap into their inborn magics.
Charisma: This is the characters everything. All characters can benifit from this. This is what determines your characters speech and how well he takes care of himself. The way he caries himself. With more Charisma brings more presence. He does better in the battlefeild as a general giving the troops encouraging words and such.
Accuracy: (this is not your normal attribute, but because dexterity doesn't really fit with accuracy, i've decided to make Accuracy an attribute.) This is how well your aim is. Magic users don't rely on Accuracy because their magic is targeted to an area or a single target. You can cast a spell at a goblin who is around a coner if you knew he was around the corner. Mainly this is for weapon weilders. This determines how well you can hit your target with a sword, a arrow, or even a bullet from a gun. This generally determines how well you hit. It also is a small factor in damage because you can aim for more vital areas. Higher levels of accuracy combined with strenght will allow you to disarm an enemy or even decapatate.
Luck: (this attribute has only been used in very few games but its a good one). This is your characters luck, a gambler can't gamble on just his wits, he has luck on his side and he is a damn good card player. Generally what luck is for is how well you come across money or magical weapons. If luck is on your side you never know what you can come across. There is also bad luck, where the character can run into trouble with more monsters then he can handle. So this attribute can be pretty important at times.

*huff...huff...puff...puff*
Anywho, those are my concepts of what the attributes pertain to. So to get to my point. Your attributes don't play a large part in your damage as say the weapon you hold, but their are different types of weapons in a world. The only way a lvl 60 is going to do 6 damage to something was if he was weilding a weapon that only allowed 1-6 damage or what ever the case may be. For instance, if you had a broken wooden sword that does 3-6 damage per hit and gave it to a lvl 60 his sword would do the max damage. Because he is more skilled in that weapon then a lvl one who would bounch between 3,4,5, or 6 damage. He wouldn't really do more damage after that. Now if he was to go barehanded he would do more damage then the broken wooden sword because he can either swing faster or hit harder. So mainly its all a factor of what your using and not how well you use it. cause you can be the best swordsman alive and if your handed a peice of crap to work with your gonna have a tough time.

Okay now I go.....I hope.

[Nurvus]

Above everything, I like games to have a sense of realism.

If there are going to be both guns and bows, make there be a reason to use one over the other.

In a world where there are powerful guns, only ammo limitations, or some magic enhancement of sorts will make Bows useful, otherwise it's silly to use bows.

My opinion, if we consider superior physical strength, we might consider massive bows made of materials that are harder to bend, wich would make it tougher to pull the string, but to someone with enough strength, produce a massive projectile power that might rival with that of a gun.

Mix that with the possibility of using various different projectile types (great versatility) on the rush, and that suggestion I posted about in the topic "Divination - Ideas" about blades on the outer edge of Bows, to make them also useable as some sort of massive blade in melee, and you've got a weapon as good as any gun, or better.

Realistic, coherent fantasy is an utopia within reach.

---------------------------
My own inspiration after Kayden:

Main Attributes:
+ Strength:
- Resistance to the negative effects of weight. (compares strength and weight, possibly ignoring 100% of the weight's negative effects)
- Affects melee and bow damage, limited by the bow specifications.

+ Dexterity:
- Agility: Ability to react (physically): Affects Reflex.
- Precision (physically): Affects Accuracy.

+ Constitution:
- Ability to withstand damage.
- Ability to resist physical ailments.
- Affects Stamina.

+ Intellect:
- Learning capacity.
- Cunning (mentally): Affects Accuracy and Magic Accuracy.

+ Wisdom:
- Learning speed.
- Perception: Ability to react (mentally): Affects Reflex.

+ Spirit:
- Ability to resist spiritual/magical ailments
- Ability to resist spiritual/magical damage
- Ability to regenerate
- Ability to recover from any ailments

Secondary Attributes:
+ Accuracy: chance to hit, critically hit, how well you hit (minimum damage) and all ranged damage (mininum and maximum).
+ Reflex: succeed at dodge, parry or block
+ Stamina: ability to endure physical effort (swinging your weapon, running - the heavier the weight effect on you, the less your stamina lasts in a battle)
+ Weight: Your total weight (including self).
- Applies a penalty to swing and movement speed.
- Increases weight based damage, limited by your strength (a massive guy will make better use of a huge axe or hammer than an equally damaging two-handed katana; or slamming opponent into the ground wrestling style)
- Penalizes physical efforts' Stamina drain.
(Some Players might choose naturally heavier or lighter characters depending on their purpose, perhaps affecting their natural strength and constitution (positively) and dexterity (negatively) resulting in a natural advantage, while lowering their swing and movement speed and making them get tired faster, resulting in a natural disadvantage)
+ Magic Accuracy: chance to hit, critically hit, how well you hit (minimum damage) with magic.



--------
Some stats (Wisdom, mainly) are not very deep, but the overal idea is there ;)

[Damon]

Rambo had no problem with bows against attack helicopters. Why should we?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2nNcnPTQ6uA

[Nurvus]

Oh, and please DON'T make items based on Level.

Better materials = more expensive.
Better craft = more expensive.

Make you able to defeat and loot enemies (players included).
- Take into account that this would require a strict inventory/weight system, to make it realistic. You can't carry 3 person's gear worth. And even if you carry 2 person's worth, your ability to battle will be reduced due to overweight, and people may defeat you and take what you thought was yours.

This would result in:
Lowbie wearing great gear = main target.

So you should be able to wear anything that you know how to use (training with the specific weapon might be required)

You may be able to wield any weapon, maybe the best weapon in the game, yet wield it like the unexperienced soldier you are, wasting most of its usefulness.

Like in Guild Wars. Better weapons have attribute requirements. You can wield them anyway, but receive penalties for not meeting the requirements.

There is alot to work with, making this a game out of the usual grinding formula.

[amz181]

lol, rambo ...hehehe...

But nyways, as for you lot hoping for a medieval environment, the deva and algar conept cities do look kind of meieval and by go they look great, i reckon guns would definetly fit because demons and angels are bascically two immortal creatures and the peuny humans have got to have something, the angels and demons' magic is the equivalent of the humans technology, its a new idea that i like and think will do well, and i can remeber somewhere damon saying that there would be something in the game for shooter fans...

So how i see it youl actually have to aim your ranged weapons, which i thinnk is great!

[Valkazon]

Bows can be just as effective as guns when you consider the numerous types of head they could use eg explosive, or even the whole arrow could be something unique as well - constructed purely from energy, fire, ice...

Also there are times when you may want to use a bow such as for stealth reasons; you can control to a degree how much damage it does (by use of different arrows - heads and flights, the poundage of the bow and how far you draw back for the shot etc. After all, sometimes you may want to just stop someone rather than kill them, or if you're out hunting you may actually want to eat it rather than have some mashed up unrecognisable goo courtesy of your uber plasma cannon ;D

[Lord_Akira]

I personaly think that guns is the best idea for ranged weapons.Like Final Fantasy ^^.But...there have to be different classes of weapons.Like Heavy weapons and Light weapons and Sniper weps or smthing...you figure it out XD

[weewee23]

Is it just me or should the ranged weapons not be bows and crossbows not guns. Like this is a fantasy game I know, but why guns seems like an age to bows to me.
Ive always wanted to shoot a guy in the face with a gun when he had a sword (Kinda like the Indiana Jones scene;D). Id love to see how that kind of future yet somehow ancient combination would work out.
- And im not about to run into a Renaissance festival with a AK-47 blazin...., for now