View Full Version : Super Fantastic Poll 2: The Reckoning
jiisu
05-20-2006, 12:20 AM
Seeing as the first poll was a success, just like how The Fast and The Furious was a "success", I've decided to up the ante in the no holds barred sequel to the best mentally stimulating poll ever. Ladies and Gentlemen, I bring you....
Super Fantastic Poll 2: The Reckoning
How do you perceive the role of MMOs today in relation to the "expansive experience"? Are they too scared to allow players to explore every nook and crany, ala Elder Scrolls IV, or do you feel that MMO's are meant for grinding and not exploration? Do you feel that limiting the player in an MMO restricts the birth of "emergent gameplay" in gaming communities? Hmm? Huh? Wha??
Seeing as the first poll was a success, just like how The Fast and The Furious was a "success", I've decided to up the ante in the no holds barred sequel to the best mentally stimulating poll ever. Ladies and Gentlemen, I bring you....
Super Fantastic Poll 2: The Reckoning
How do you perceive the role of MMOs today in relation to the "expansive experience"? Are they too scared to allow players to explore every nook and crany, ala Elder Scrolls IV, or do you feel that MMO's are meant for grinding and not exploration? Do you feel that limiting the player in an MMO restricts the birth of "emergent gameplay" in gaming communities? Hmm? Huh? Wha??
I thought most developers called "emergent gameplay", "bugs" !
All joking aside -
Wasnt it Raph Kosters theory with SWG to create a sort of shell of a world, hoping players would put the life into it? On paper it looked fantastic -
- Player run economy (Trade "Bazaars" and player merchant
support)
- Player crafting system (which created the majority of the items in
the game. To include the very best of the best. This IMHO doesnt
work at all and is very detramental in an MMO)
- Player housing, with the ability to create player run towns (and
very little restrictions)
- Conflict. Good and Bad. Rebel and Imperial
- Very few restrictions on player classes. The players ability to
choose almost any route in character development.
- A superclass concept to strive for. The Jedi - multiple routes for
character development and again little restrictions.
- A tried and true, very popular theme and world with the Star Wars
universe.
Sounds great? So why is SWG a failure? Why doesnt it have 200,000 or more subs? We can run down a list of problems the game had - but I believe its because Raph tried to force emergent gameplay. No, he relied on it. And it worked just about as well as me trying to get Jessica Alba over for evening romance.
See - Rebels dont fight Imperials because ones called "Rebel" and the other is called "Imperial". Even if we have 30 years of backstory telling us we should.
Batman didnt go after the Joker because it sounded like a fun idea.
Frodo didnt take the ring to Mordor because - "Hey, what else is he going to do??" and Sauron didnt oppose him because he "felt like some l3wt pvp and gAnk1ng action 11!!."
Good/Bad, Batman/Joker, Rebel/Imperial.... you name it - conflict because the two sides have opposing goals that naturally lead them into opposition. Of course a good story will have a few twists and turns along the way - but the premise is much the same.
And thats whats really needed in an MMO - A story, the gentle (or moderate depending on the point of view) nudge that pushes players along and also places them in opposition, conflict or difficult situations.
Emergent gameplay shouldnt be relied upon. There needs to be a world, a story, that players can interact with that compel them to do things and progress. In the course of them playing the game, thell come up with stuff on their own.
As for expansive experience - Are you referring to just exploration or the game in general, mechanics and all?
-V
Moloch
05-21-2006, 07:15 AM
How do you perceive the role of MMOs today in relation to the "expansive experience"? Are they too scared to allow players to explore every nook and crany, ala Elder Scrolls IV, or do you feel that MMO's are meant for grinding and not exploration?
IMO an MMO should not be designed as an "experience". It should be designed around the meta-game (end) and then reverse engineered to get there. The experience is the means to that end and not the end itself. That's where a lot of Devs get it wrong, their vision for a game is full of trite motherhood statements like "Vast Moneypit Enterprises will create a revolutionary, genre leading, experience that will be the premier 5th generation MMO." Unless, of course, you design for Vanguard (now with SOE - LOL) and believe that grinding is a destination rather than a journey.
IMO (again) Devs should create a "fun" experience that will cater to no more than two aspects of the Bartle profiles. To do more is to water down your endgame with conflicting aims. This is a game about conflict, I'd love to see it focussed on a killer / achiever axis.
As for Vali's ideas about conflict being meaningful in an MMO. It can be if there is a point to the conflict. Baning cities to turn them into dust and ashes ala Shadowbane has meaning. RvR ala DAoC to gain access to uber dungeaons and Realm buffs has a degree of meaning. WoW PvP has little meaning as it is part of a grind to get loot. It's an alternative to BWL/ZG/AQ 40 man raids and the soon to be Naxx grind. IMO the story is wrapping paper, you tear it apart to get to what it covers. Unless - as I've said before - the story can be influenced by players through their in game actions. Influenced in a significant, altering the game's direction, kind of way.
BTW, Hey Vali :) Mythica exiles FtW!
As for Vali's ideas about conflict being meaningful in an MMO. It can be if there is a point to the conflict. Baning cities to turn them into dust and ashes ala Shadowbane has meaning.
BTW, Hey Vali :) Mythica exiles FtW!
Exactly, there has to be a point (tis what I was trying to get at). The story is just a good way to introduce opposing ideals, but a game mechanic of some form needs to place the characters in opposition. Quest system, major objective, etc.
WoW's PVP has very little meaning, but I cant say its not successful. It is a true letdown in that, they have what could have been an excellent metagame - instead they took an easier route and threw in a few items and an enormous timesink.
Tons of people PVP in WoW every day. Some base their entire experience around it, no raiding, nothing else, strictly PVP. And they do it as an alternate form of character advancement.
Its more than what SWG had, but its still crap. Just goes to show how powerful a few items and a ranking system can be.
-V
jiisu
05-21-2006, 08:20 PM
As for expansive experience - Are you referring to just exploration or the game in general, mechanics and all?
When i say expansive experience, I am referring to the limit put upon the player in exploring the world around them, encompassing everything from "invisible walls" to a lack of skills that may be required to reach certain heights. I use the word heights, generally of course, to mean areas that would take a some bit to a great deal of skill to reach.
I've always thought that the Indiana Jones complex, one that urges players to explore the world they occupy, to be one that is ignored by most games entirely. My favorite example of this is any MMO that does not let you jump. Jumping is the baby step to exploration that some games either do not include or put in a faux jump, ala SWG.
I've always thought that the Indiana Jones complex, one that urges players to explore the world they occupy, to be one that is ignored by most games entirely.
I enjoy as much freedom in character movement as possible. In AO I had a flying car and zipped around places I shouldnt have been at my level. In City of Heros I had a pretty good time super jumping around the game world.
I do, and will take time out of regular gameplay purely for exploration purposes.
Albeit in a PVP game, movement is also a combat ability - and one that must either scare developers or has been overlooked.
But game mechanics built around true exploration seem, at least to me, a bit difficult.
Put in a quest system that requires me to explore in order to find the objective? Id probably just look it up on one of the O-Gaming bought websites.
Put in enough zones and areas that forces me to explore to find better l3wts, faster leveling or more rewarding progression path - probably back to the website I go. (Its the same reason dramatic differences in zone population occurred on EQ1 servers.. they even tried to correct it, with exp benefits with no success)
Not sure other than the old, explore once - get there fast the next time system.
Maybe randomly spawning junk? WoW's got those special critters that randomly spawn, but the reward isnt worth the effort in looking for them.
-V
Some good points,
One of the major highlights in COH/COV is character movement, getting around in a non convential way, and each "Travel Power" allows you to see the world in a different perspective, weather its leaping rooftops, running a 1000mph or Flying.
Its the small things that truly make a game worth paying/playing. Being able to decorate a home in a game, variations of card games within the game. Anything that allows the player to FEEL as if he is apart of the game, and not sitting behind a monitor for hours a day grinding. In WoW between the graphics the storyline I was able to to take a warlock 1-60 without feeling to much of a harsh grind. Given at that time warlocks were "gimped" my entire time leveling, I always asked myself Why am I doing this? It took me till about 60 to realize, sure mages/rogues could outdamage me, sure I couldn't tank. But I had utility, and I felt unique. The fact I didnt look, act, or level like 95% of wow made me feel as if I wasnt just grinding. Reality faded and I became my character, I dont mean in the standard rp way, thee has forsaken me blah blah. I mean in the way I felt about my character, The way I chatted in-game didnt often reflect RP, because most of it was done in my head.
Im sure that is confusing to read, but the morale of the story is its the small things that matter the most. Seeing your character change in looks as you grow is satisfying. Not looking like every other character lets you feel unique. Running from town to town and summoning and inferno to kill a deer in your warlocks path priceless.
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