Design Decisions: The Infamous Grind

[Will]

You'll noticed I'm not as slow as you thought I was, and I actually moved these discussions to the proper forum. Here they shall remain!

This week's topic of discussion: the grind! Everybody's favorite time sink, feel free to rant away at how much you may hate a grind, or how enjoyable you might find a long period of advancement. As usual, I have a couple of questions:

Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?

Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)

Out of any game you've played, which had the most intolerable leveling/skilling system? Did you reach the cap? (For fairness sake, dual classing like in FFXI doesn't count, just your first class)

What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?

Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?

In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?

If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?

Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)

Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?

And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?



Answer as many as you feel comfortable / feel knowledgeable enough about to answer. Obviously if you haven't played a game, or haven't had a particular experience with a system, I would ask you not to make something up. If you don't want to answer any questions and just want to go off on a tangent about leveling treadmills or grinding in general, feel free! Just keep the profanity to a minimum and PLEASE make your points clear and concise, with atleast some attention paid to the grammatical form of your post (That means you hanstin! :P)

[hanstin]

You'll noticed I'm not as slow as you thought I was, and I actually moved these discussions to the proper forum. Here they shall remain!

This week's topic of discussion: the grind! Everybody's favorite time sink, feel free to rant away at how much you may hate a grind, or how enjoyable you might find a long period of advancement. As usual, I have a couple of questions:

Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?

Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)

Out of any game you've played, which had the most intolerable leveling/skilling system? Did you reach the cap? (For fairness sake, dual classing like in FFXI doesn't count, just your first class)

What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?

Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?

In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?

If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?

Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)

Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?

And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?



Answer as many as you feel comfortable / feel knowledgeable enough about to answer. Obviously if you haven't played a game, or haven't had a particular experience with a system, I would ask you not to make something up. If you don't want to answer any questions and just want to go off on a tangent about leveling treadmills or grinding in general, feel free! Just keep the profanity to a minimum and PLEASE make your points clear and concise, with atleast some attention paid to the grammatical form of your post (That means you hanstin! :P)

Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?
grinding for gold and items yes, grinding for levels no

Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)
WoW about 19 days but i did more then just level level level i also enjoyed

Out of any game you've played, which had the most intolerable leveling/skilling system? Did you reach the cap? (For fairness sake, dual classing like in FFXI doesn't count, just your first class)
WoW its easy to level, runescape SUCKED at skilling up etc

What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?
about 80%


Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?
Im powah leveling then baby

In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?
0

If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?
about 50% of the time it took to get those skills upgraded etc

Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)
no everybody is the same

Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?
err???


And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?
Sngle Class system its because im used to it

I GOT DYSLEXIA !!! UNDERSTAND IT!!!!

[Malice]

Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?

Yea of course .

Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)

RYL...Took me like 8 months to reach the cap , but that game was mostly for pvp not pve.

What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?

85%


Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?

Yea of course

In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?

0

If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?

I dont know , it depends .

Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)

I think they deserver a little advantage because they spent many hours to reach it

Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?

If that AA system is like RYL AA system then yes

And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?

Anything :D

[Darthorious]

Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?

Yes I don?t want to start the game and have a character I can?t improve stat wise other than items or consumables.


Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)

Pre-Cu star wars galaxies had the perfect set up for me. There was no cap per-say and the skill system was so advanced you could cap your skills in the matter of a week with a ton of low level skills or concentrate in higher end skills which took me a total of a year to cap (use all skill points) in a way I felt comfortable with for my play style. Assuming you didn?t exploit the grenade thing.

Out of any game you've played, which had the most intolerable leveling/skilling system? Did you reach the cap? (For fairness sake, dual classing like in FFXI doesn't count, just your first class)

World of Warcraft, I reached and capped everything possible including epic gear, crafting, fishing, cooking and all usable weapons within 3 weeks of installing the game.
Was way too fast and way too easy I felt no accomplishment for anything I did, and PvP was pretty boring after a while you know what the other players will do because they all do the same thing and PvP becomes predictable and wins are easy with the exception of the top 10% of players. Intolerable because it was too easy IMO.

What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?

If there?s fishing in the game and includes fishing skill ups then 40% if not then 95%. If fishing is ever in game make skill-up few and far between gives people braggin rights lol. More people brag about fishing levels than their charecter levels in FFXI.

Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?

No Within 20% of the cap I level about 10% of my time and learn to use the skills I have before I cap so I can be an asset right off the bat to a party and know what I can and can?t do.

In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?

For me (I can see the flames now) indefinetly I?m still waiting for a game that has no cap as I would more than likely play it forever. Face it you get a characters particular skill to 456 and you know your 30 behind the leader you will grind for the sake of trying to be the best, even though you know the leader will still be 30 ahead of you trying to keep the lead. At least I would but no one I know, with the exception of 1 person, agrees with me. Due to PvP concerns but you could cap the PvP I argue.


If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?

If you mean switch from say using swords to using axes then you should have to start at square 1 but because you can take on higher mobs your skills would increase faster than taking on a starting mob. Assuming of course there were character levels in the game.

Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)

Nope I say you have the same advantage of skilling up something from level one that a newb does

Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?

Never played

And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?

I LOVE the multiclass player system in FFXI you can switch to a different job get board of it go back and level another job then go back to your main job and keep all the levels for each job then get to play basicly two jobs at once after doing the sub-job quest. This alone has kept me playing that game for almost 4 years now. Of course like the skill system also but multiclass squeaks ahead for me.

[Spartan]

Grinding is arguable for pros and cons.

I like the multiclass system set up in FFXI, just wish you didn't have to wait so long to be a samurai or ninja. I believe every "Major" class should have a "Trainee" class. Ronin --> Samurai. etc. Instead of waiting to do quests, subquests to gain a class. Every class should be playable from the beginning, so you can create your characters the way you want them.

[Ziegler]

Not going to break it down.
But here is my feelings on the...Grind.

Grind is what players do when they think there is something at the end, and nothing where they are currently at.
If you make the game and message to the player base...there is no magical "I own all" at the end, then perhaps they wont be so focused on racing to the end. Making sure there is content that is abundant enough to take you through the levels goes toward preventing the grind as well. I.E. if it takes 5 quests to get from lvl 1 to lvl 2...then there should be 10 of those quests available not 2.

mudflation also leads to the grind. Which you seem to be approaching.

Also, making the leveling into a treadmill....making 10K widgets, so you can now make 10K wadgers to get to the really cool whatchamacallits which you will ned to make 20K of so you can make humdingers. (This is what I fear with the skill system.)....my alternative to this is making getting those recipes or formulas be troublesome instead of just getting them and grinding away.

More later as I wake up.

[a chewy rock]

I think there's really no reason to grind. You set your goal to the max and then you rush to it and when you get there you realize there's nowhere else to go. I like to just play a game and slowly work my way up to the top. I'm going to have fun when I play, not slave away at the same task hour upon hour until I reach the limit.

[Ziegler]

I think there's really no reason to grind. You set your goal to the max and then you rush to it and when you get there you realize there's nowhere else to go. I like to just play a game and slowly work my way up to the top. I'm going to have fun when I play, not slave away at the same task hour upon hour until I reach the limit.
too many people dont have that mentality anymore...I think if they played some DnD, they would, as it is about the journey, not the end.

I wager if a game has it to where...when you reach "endgame" you die...there wouldnt be so much racing to get to the end game content.

[a chewy rock]

lol, don't finish this game or you'll die! But yeah, D&D... I played it like twice. It's not really what people do now. I can definately see how it makes for the actually playing of it fun, rather than the end because you make up almost everything you do.

If online games were like that, where players decided how the world was that they felt like playing in, it would be pretty awesome. I don't think that can happen though. If a group could create an instance or something and play through it with features that they, or the party leader, put into it as they felt needed, it would be awesome. That would be really cool to be able to design your own instance and play it with your group. I don't see how this would work though. It would most likely take to long to design. Not everyone has that time. Maybe if they could be saved..... and worked on later. Just some crazy idea.

Or maybe randomly generated instances. Not always but only if you wanted to do one. Like a training zone or something and it's a randomly generated place with random enemies and obstacles. I don't know how this would work either, but it's just another idea.

[isobar]

In my opinion, the grind was created by companies who wanted to milk as much money from their subscribers as possilble. I mean, you level up fast because it gets you addicted to the game, and gets you into the game. Then you hit a certain "hell" level if you will. Players become determined to grind through it so that they can say the reached the top level. In my opinion, games that have hella grinds, are the games that lack the most content to keep the subscriber hooked on their own.

I mean, look at Diablo 2. One could get to level 99 in one day back in the old days, and even now you can still get to lvl 80+ in only a few hours with a good party. Yet it is probably the most popular MMO game out there... and yes, I am calling it that even though it has lobbies, just for the sake of my argument. The pvp and item collecting in this game gave something for everyone to do. People who hated PvP would build mega characters to do more efficent magic find runs. People who hated PvM would buy items to pvp. The fighting didn't really get bored, because the monters were somewhat randomized.

So I think what needs to happen, is there needs to be a balance between fast leveling, and grinding. Maybe look at L2 and WoW, and find a balance. Or take something from the console games, where you can max out your levels in 30-40 hours of gaming. I think I put over 1000 hours into EQ before I reached level 55, pre easy exping.

As for the AA skills of EQ, I have mixed feelings for them. Some of those skills shouldn't have had to be earned. But I guess whatever gets SoE their money.

And out of EQ/WoW, FFXI, or UO... UO had one of the best skill systems out of any game ever. It was the basis of the skill system for EQ, cept they limited it to class skills. What I liked about UO, was that if you didn't like one skill, you could chose to lower it, and raise another one. It wasn't instant either, you had to earn the skill ups in the other skill and as you did that, the first skill went down. For example, you mastered Chivalry, and realized you wanna be evil instead, so you start to memorize Necromancy. The skill points in Chivalry go down as Necro goes up. If you can use this system, and craft it into your own unique version, I would love you forever. In a very straight way mind you.

[Corrupt]

"Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?"

Yes, i feel that you should get out of an MMORPG what you put in, those willing to spend more time on their characters should be able to reap the benefit (more xp/items/faction)

"Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)"

I guess i would say WoW for this, purely beause the leveling was so easy, around 10 days to cap.

"Out of any game you've played, which had the most intolerable leveling/skilling system? Did you reach the cap? (For fairness sake, dual classing like in FFXI doesn't count, just your first class)"

Everquest back before hotspots etc was pretty damn slow, eventually reached the cap with my lvl 50 dorf warrior after like 4 months, but the most intolerable for me atm, is Phantasy Star Universe, so repetative and mindless.

"What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?"

Around 95% as i hate tradeskilling, the other 5% is random pvp to keep me from going insane ;)

"Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?"

Thats when the grind really begins!

"In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?"

I dont mind how long it takes, what concerns me is keeping me hooked whilst leveling/skilling i.e. noticable gain from it (you gain more skills with swords, u actually notice the extra damage/hit% etc, or can go back to town to collect your new funky sword) those are the things that make me want to keep playing. I would rather have 100 lvls to get, with a lvl up every 5 hours, then 50, with one every 10.

"If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?"

Assuming you mean something like getting a subclass, at least half the time it took to cap out in the first place.

"Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)"

No, leave them with something to do after they cap, so you dont get people maxing out everything quickly and getting bored.

"Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?"

Liked it, gave me something to do after being capped for a while, 903 aa's.

"And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?"

Depends on how freeform the multiclass is, dont want to end up with everyone being a hybrid of everything, done right, i would probably like multiclass, or good ol' single class. Never really enjoyed UO that much.

:cool:

[Damon]

Nice post Corrupt. I think your accomplishments there qualify you as Hardcore. haha, Good!

[hanstin]

oh god hardcore are mostly (not all) but mostly lifeless people

[Corrupt]

oh god hardcore are mostly (not all) but mostly lifeless people

Put me in the small part of people not lifeless then ;)

I love mmorpgs, but i have to occasionally go out or my girlfriend beats me. :eek:

[rynb1n]

good to hear there corrupt :)

[absolute_d]

Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?

No. Running around to kill things just to lvl up detracts from storyline and depth of gameplay. It should be there for those who like to just mindlessly conquer poisoned antelope and pissed off lions, but not mandatory to create your character. In an ideal world, the game would recognize your playstyle and reward you experience based off of the accomplishments of how you play the game.

Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)

I can say that out of all the MMO's I've played the inevitable grind creates a dead spot in the game which causes people like me to 'check out the other classes'. CoH was ok, and WoW not terribly bad, but for the most part they have all had the same spin on pushing through a slow pacing series - in CoH this for me was lvl's 26-36, in WoW 36-50.

Out of any game you've played, which had the most intolerable leveling/skilling system? Did you reach the cap? (For fairness sake, dual classing like in FFXI doesn't count, just your first class)

I have failed to cap out in every MMO I've played as 'the grind' gets boring and I lose interest in my current character...off I go to make another. I have over 15 characters on my WoW account and not a single one is above 51.

What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?

30%-40% until I get bored...then I may start a new character or repeat a couple of instances.

Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?

Sometimes but not always.

In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?

0

If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?

Honestly I think that should depend on how the new direction relates to your current skill set. Is it something that is similar to how your character is now? Or something completely and utterly different? If it's similar or relates then the learning curve should be shorter, if the direction is distinctly different and new, then the curve should be similar to a new character starting out but a bit shorter. A higher level character with an increased intelligence level would learn new things quicker after all.

Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)

Again in an ideal environment I think this should be determined by how you play the game. If you run around like a rogue doing everything solo and spend all your time alone, then you may have a tougher time with things that require you to have interactions with other. You may have a reputation for being a loner or people may be scared of you for that very same reason. On the other hand if you spend your time championing others, then those in a position to help you would be more likely to do so. This obviously would be modified even more by faction choice and how they percieve the above behaviors.

Learning skills and advancing after you've capped should follow the conventions mentioned in the previous questions response.

Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?

I did not play EQ.

And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?

Well since there are no classes in the system, I don't see this being a relevant question. But since it has been asked, I prefer a modified single class system, where you have one general class with the opportunities to learn skills and abilities of other classes once certain earmarks have been reached. In the system that you have been creating, there really should be no cap as wisdom is infinite and you can continue to build on your skills and learn. After all a master craftsman can still learn new techniques to make his creations that much better. The quest for information is one that never ends.


D

[Vladimir]

Do you feel a "grind" is necessary in an MMORPG?

no , but its inevitable.

Out of any game you've played, which had the most tolerable leveling/skilling system? How long did it take you to reach the cap? (Including time not spent leveling)

Vanguard, a nice combination of not to hard and not to easy. havnt reached cap im still playing.

Out of any game you've played, which had the most intolerable leveling/skilling system? Did you reach the cap? (For fairness sake, dual classing like in FFXI doesn't count, just your first class)

WoW, it was so easy that it was boring. absolutly no challenge what so ever they might was well have added an "i win" button.

What % of your playtime do you spend leveling if you are a long distance from the cap?

75% - 85%, somtimes more somtimes less.

Do you spend more time leveling as you approach closer to the cap?

no, i screw around and do pvp with some grinding here and there.

In a perfect world, what is the total time in hours spent grinding skills/levels?

none

If you capped out in KW, every skill and stat you wanted, but then you decided you wanted to try a new direction with your character, how long would you _LIKE_ it to take?

same.

Do you think capped characters deserve an additional advantage in skilling up? (I say additional, because they're going to have better items, more friends, etc which will ease the process)

no, they already have an advantage why would they need another one?

Did you like/dislike the AA system placed in EQ in luclin? Why or Why not? How many AA's did you get?

i loved it, it allowed me to customize my character they way i wanted to.

And now the big question, which do you prefer? A multiclass system(FFXI), a single class system(EQ/WOW), or a skill system(UO)?

a skill system because that allows the most freedom when making your character.

[xhellmagic]

my 1st post so pls dont flame me if u think its stupid

regarding the last question,asking us whether we like the class or skill system. i think how bout a single class AND skill system."
what i mean is EXAMPLE: a person has choosen to be a warrior who specialises in melee combat,but with the skill system he can get any skills he wants.example he learns the mage skills,this will make him be like a mageknight able to cast spells and also use melee weapons,but of coz it has disadvantages coz since his a warrior,physical dmg is important ,magic attk are for mages so the dmg of his spells is not as high as a person who is a mage and learn the mage skills.so there will be like so many kind of dif people running around,either going pure warrior onli getting the warrior skills or being a hybrid warrior,getting spells and some of the warrior skills.
hope all of u know wat i mean,my english is kinda bad ,hope this is a good idea :D

[Mister Matt]

there is very little flaming onKW forums so you really dont have to worry about that

[a chewy rock]

Just because you tagged yourself with the anme of warrior shouldn't mean that you don't learn magic as someone tagged as a mage. If you want to learn something you shoud be able to learn it to its full extent.

[Ziegler]

Just because you tagged yourself with the anme of warrior shouldn't mean that you don't learn magic as someone tagged as a mage. If you want to learn something you shoud be able to learn it to its full extent.


Yes, but in the same amount of time spent played is what hellmagic is speaking to I think......the "mageknight" will be a little weaker at both magic and melee then either a Mage or a Knight who has focused primarily on a narrow set of skills.

Yes, that is the advantage of a Skill based system, variety limited only by the amount of combinations of skills allowed. The important thing is to make sure that there is a valid need for all skills offered, present in the game. There isnt reason for some one to spend points on fart sniffing, if there is no farting in the game.

EDIT: And I get the privilege of flaming as I am the oldest around here, but I save that for those who post in the Cady loves Hastin thread.