Crafting, Free trade markets and everything you need to blow sh%^ up!

[Durien]

Since the site has been relaunched, I'm not able to find anything discussed about this idea. I'm assuming there has been, or will be, at some point a basic outline of what may, or may not, be planned for support.

So if I may, I'd like to know if a craft system is going to be implemented, and if implemented, what type of trade/market system is the most likely to be used. I have to say the best market/crafting idea to date, IMHO, is the system currently being added to PotBS...

I think what it'll really come down to is, how gear-centric is the game planned to be? And even if the gear a character uses is only a modifier (Like SB) and not a more of a defining element (such as WoW/EQ), will player crafted goods be on par or even surpass world drops/quest items?

Also, how story line active can non-combat types be in the game? Will I have to be some form of combat base with some crafting skill, or can I be the ass who overcharges everyone for everything but always able to provide what you need, but not get my hands dirty, as it were?

Ok... I think that covers my half asleep questioning...but not my terrible grammer/spelling...

[Loren_Roosendaal]

What is clear on this topic at the moment is that the game is more market and economy driven then it is craft driven. This is also because it takes place in a rather industrialized environment (production of gear usualy occurs in factories that are actualy a visitable part of our world).

Other then that it pays to note that whatever form of crafting may make it into the game, will never go at the cost of making your character less usefull in combat.

[Moloch]

What is clear on this topic at the moment is that the game is more market and economy driven then it is craft driven.

Could we have more information Loren?

Are you suggesting that our place in the market is as a supplier of raw materials? That we'll have access to 'gatherer' skills (think mining, herbalism and skinning ala WoW) so that we can gather resources off nodes/mobs? Are you suggesting that we can fight over auto-producing resources nodes (think RTS)? Or loot resources off mobs (think Saga of Ryzom - if anyone else has played it!).

Or is our place in the market as a supplier of finished goods (loot off mobs)?

Regardless, if the economy is demand driven you need an easy means of automated goods exchange. The UO/EQ-like vendor systems suck as they constitute individual sellers and not a market, and do not replicate the information flows which underly efficient market exchanges. The WoW Auction Houses is the best of these MMOG systems, and includes a small money sink in the fees charged per transaction.

If the economy is resource driven then you'll find that the market will track the components for goods that are useful to the front and middle of the levelling curve. Resources for goods that were useful to the left of this curve will tend to decline in price as the mean player level no longer has use for them.

Personally I prefer a Shadowbane vendor type system, with the possibility of crafting additions (Think D2LOD's socketing/jewel/runeword system) to personalise weapons to particular play styles. I'd be happy if KW added PvP related control of resource nodes that fed then rate of production of these vendors.

[Durien]

Other then that it pays to note that whatever form of crafting may make it into the game, will never go at the cost of making your character less usefull in combat.


Ahh.. I think you misunderstood me, what I meant was if I didn't WANT to be a combat style character, could I focus more on the trade/crafting market and hire body guards (either player or NPC) and only deal with the market aspect of the game. Since you are planning on a skill use style progress tree, I'm assuming there will be some form of point system for skills, such as you can only have X number of skills before the less used skills breakdown faster or are just dropped. Otherwise you'd eventually have a world populated by characters able to do everything.. and thus reduce the need for any type of group or support style players, outside of sheer numbers to take on certain Mobs.

If this is the case, and there are plans to include a player owned economy, of any type, will the players be able to choose to focus exclusively on just this gameplay aspect?

As a side note, I'm not asking for a CareBear nerf stick to the world or anything like that. But even in a high tech/production based society where you might not be the one directly creating the items, there are still supply lines, and those who do the work of "finding" the things people have a demand for, usually make a fortune. When you add PVP into the mix, with increased risk, come increased profits. Also this might add a dynamic to gameplay that has not been looked at heavily in most MMO's to date and was the reason I pointed to the system Pirates of the Burning Seas now has working.

So I guess the biggest question is, how much can you tell us about the economy at this point? I know you can't tell us everything you want to, but some basic idea would be extremely helpful! ^_^

[Loren_Roosendaal]

Are you suggesting that our place in the market is as a supplier of raw materials? That we'll have access to 'gatherer' skills (think mining, herbalism and skinning ala WoW) so that we can gather resources off nodes/mobs? Are you suggesting that we can fight over auto-producing resources nodes (think RTS)? Or loot resources off mobs (think Saga of Ryzom - if anyone else has played it!).


Indeed, that's what I'm suggesting... Infact it's a combination of both elements that you just mentioned, you can fight over specific resource deposits as part of the PvP metagame and then have your gatherers go to work and harvest those resources. Both the people involved in the PVP aspect and those that simply hurry to a popular resource spot to gather are rewarded greatly for this.


Regardless, if the economy is demand driven you need an easy means of automated goods exchange. The UO/EQ-like vendor systems suck as they constitute individual sellers and not a market, and do not replicate the information flows which underly efficient market exchanges. The WoW Auction Houses is the best of these MMOG systems, and includes a small money sink in the fees charged per transaction.


The easy and automated means of goods exchange we resort to is that of factories and stores. These factories and stores, which will buy and sell raw materials and buy and sell finished goods respectively, use only those goods within our closed market... This means that items are produced by factories automaticaly, based on the demand of stores (and thus players) for that item (low on stock) and using raw materials supplied by players. This whole mechanic leads to true demand based prices.


If the economy is resource driven then you'll find that the market will track the components for goods that are useful to the front and middle of the levelling curve. Resources for goods that were useful to the left of this curve will tend to decline in price as the mean player level no longer has use for them.


Very true, fortunately though, unlike most MMO's out there we don't have many such goods if any at all. The way our system is set up 95% of the available items and gear retain value wherever you are in the leveling curve, instead of just being the thing you should use between say, level 23 and 25. Which we would concider a terrible waste of content.


Ahh.. I think you misunderstood me, what I meant was if I didn't WANT to be a combat style character, could I focus more on the trade/crafting market and hire body guards (either player or NPC) and only deal with the market aspect of the game. Since you are planning on a skill use style progress tree, I'm assuming there will be some form of point system for skills, such as you can only have X number of skills before the less used skills breakdown faster or are just dropped. Otherwise you'd eventually have a world populated by characters able to do everything.. and thus reduce the need for any type of group or support style players, outside of sheer numbers to take on certain Mobs.

If this is the case, and there are plans to include a player owned economy, of any type, will the players be able to choose to focus exclusively on just this gameplay aspect?


Obviously there is nothing stopping you from focusing on the trading/resource gathering aspect of the game. This just won't affect your characters viability in combat because our skills are part of related groups or sometimes even pairs, amongst which you can only gain a set amount of experience levels, since our tradeskills would never be in the same group as a combat related skill, you can see the path of the tradeskill and the path of the warrior as two different things each character can develop. Although it is at this point unclear exactly how far a set of possible tradeskills would go, we'd obviously want all our players to be able to experience both the combat and trade based metagames without needing to level multiple characters.

[deghost]

Why not have best of both worlds?
All roads leads to greatness.
When you do alot of resource gathering,
You get a few peices of better equip, which balance your combat decay.
And then until you destroy or give em away, you can't become better at combat?
Then when you gain those peices of eqipment, you loose combat effectiveness.

Or every peice of equpiment is important and need to be upkeeped.
And you can only carry 1 pair of gloves, armor, boots, w/e, then combat types can use weaker armor that have light upkeeping materials and resource type from all the hurling can ahve heavier upkeep materials. So u don't have a army of Kill em alls and 1 resource dude to supply them

[Soliptic]

I can't answer specifics on tradeskills, because obviousy there's work going on in this area. I can answer Durien's specific question, in that if you want to focus entirely on trade skills it is theoretically possible. While Kaos is an industrialized world (by human standards) remember that in war the first casualty is truth, and the second is your manufacturing centers. Player crafters will be a welcome addition to any faction, highly specialized crafters will be highly sought after. They'll be needed to upgrade/create/tweak the weapons of war, after all. That said, because of the skills based nature of the game, there is nothing stopping this crafter from picking up an axe or shotgun and defending his forge... or machine shop or what have you.

[Jsnukka]

that sounds hootttt.

[acidmeth]

Crafter/Slasher,i like the concept,being wanted by most groups like he said for the tweaks and whathaveyou,and also being very useful in the combat sense.What more can you ask for.It would be obvious that the "richest" players in the game would likely be the the crafters because they could make items better,or maybe just beable to repair some that are on the verge of being destroyed,also Ive noticed tons of the "richest" players are also the hunters/combatants,so its basically gonna be balanced out?And also is there going to be upgrading(I'm guessing yes because you said tweaks),but is there going to be a success/fail % for certain areas of upgrade,such as +1-+10 or such,and also is there going to be visual effects such as glowing items/different colors for each upgrade,say past +4 and up get a darker to lighter glow to it?

I guess I'm asking quite abit of questions on my first day on this forum,let me know what you can and what you can't say right now makes me want to see sooo badly so i guess ill have to just wait like the rest for this amazing game to be ready ;D

[jiisu]

Well, acidmeth, no one will ever call an inquiring mind a stupid one in these forums. Asketh and you shall recieveth... within reason of course. Here we go!


is there going to be upgrading(I'm guessing yes because you said tweaks),but is there going to be a success/fail % for certain areas of upgrade,such as +1-+10 or such


I can't say specifics, but there is indeed much though on the idea of upgrading so far as what is upgradeable, who can upgrade what, and where can it be upgraded.


is there going to be visual effects such as glowing items/different colors for each upgrade,say past +4 and up get a darker to lighter glow to it?


My magic 8 ball says: Your future is looking bright... possibly. ;)