What I'd like to see in KW

[Moloch]

This is a (long-ish) post that lists about what I like in a MMOG. I'll be the first to admit there’ll be stuff that doesn't resonate with others. But I got here first ;)

So what would I like to see in KW?

1. A robust and meaningful character system.

a. Character creation and development that matters. I don't want a character creation and development system reminiscent of Dungeon Siege. I want to be able to make choices, set priorities and to be able to differentiate my character from others - both inter and intra class. I want to be able to play viable rogue builds, accepting that there will be a loss in performance. IMO any system that tries for equal class balance will fail and the rock-paper-scissors class concept is probably superior (although there’s always the PvE v PvP spec question – particularly if raid loot is major source of toon powerups).
b. Character leveling that is relatively quick – a journey not an end in itself.
c. Players empowered with information for toon development choices. I don't like the way that some developers 'hide' game information from players. Why shouldn't I know how the game calculates Attack, Defence, block, dodge, attack speed or the chance of getting a nasty disease from my insignificant other? I like to make choices AND I like my choices to be informed ones. I suspect that Devs who hide info do so to hide balance issues.
d. The ability to respec. I want to be able to respec my characters if I make a mistake building them or when you guys nerf an ability(s) in the interests of ‘balance’. Make it a quest, make it an opportunity at a specific level (ala DAoC), make it a refiner NPC (ala SB), make it cost gold ala WoW - but make it possible.

2. A meaningful metagame and challenging, choice-rich gameplay.

a. I want gameplay that is balanced for difficulty and level.
b. I want a meaningful metagame for when I max out. I want player actions to be able to change the story arc – think Legend of the Five Rings or Shadowbane’s GvG city bane-ing focus as prime examples. DAoC’s RvR is a lesser beast. Avoid the EQ/WoW convention of an endless succession of new raid encounters with increasingly more dangerous mobs and uber loot. This is not a metagame – it’s a cash flow stratagem.
c. I want to see a mechanism to group guilds on servers according to their ability. On one of the old boards I called this performance tiered servers.
d. I want to be able to choose to play hardcore with the possibility of permadeath. Permadeath toons should also be auto-FFA loot (perhaps with one item they can ‘will’ to their successor) to add to the challenge. Perhaps give perma-death toons an XP bonus so that leveling a replacement is even less of a chore.
e. I want to be able to have a homestead. Player housing, rooms within a guild structure, something that I can spend my hard earned gold on and invite a succubus up to see my collection of mounted Angel Heads.
f. I want PvP to have a purpose – preferably related to the metagame.
g. I want a convenient transportation system. I don't want to have to run, except into battle or to the bar.
h. I want a game with adult, moral dimensions. THe KW context suits it.

3. I want a game that is ready to be released. I dont want a game which crashes (sb.exe problems anyone?), I dont want a game where I can’t log in and sign up on the release date, I dont want a game where there are obvious balance, stability, or functionality issues that were identified in Beta. I dont want to be reminded of the early days of SWG - ever. Oh yeah, and I don’t want to queue to join my server (ala WoW).

4. Stable servers with minimal lag. I want as much effort into planning and resourcing smart coding, powerful servers and bountiful bandwidth as they appear to be into the game itself.

5. A committed, resourced and ongoing Customer Relations effort. This would include on line reps; a well-designed and up to date Web site; and an updated Internet knowledge base where I can look up gameplay and technical issues - as a minimum. Most of all I want a CR team that will keep me informed. Sure the game will have issues - but communication with your customers is the key to keeping them onside. We're not a nuisance (yet), we're the reason you're in business.

Did I mention I want a Scotch and Cigar Bar named after me?

[Inuous]

I'll keep my responses to the technically oriented areas for the most part, as that's the area I've devoted my focus to as one of the KW programmers.

In response to 3, and 4: Myself, and the rest of the technical team are devoted to quality in what we put our names on. Were not only developers, but are gamers as well - Shock, horror.
As such, our only goal is to provide the kind of MMO experience that we ourselves would like to immerse ourselves in. Having said that, my name won't go onto anything I havn't poured my soul into - as well as plenty of sleepless nights at the studio ;).

Look forward to seeing you in KW.

Thanks for your interrest and support,
-Mike-

[Loren_Roosendaal]

First of all excellent post! +1 Karma for you Moloch...

This is exactly the kind of feedback developers enjoy to reading.
Since mike seems to have the points 3 and 4 covered, I will handle 1 and 2:

1. A robust and meaningful character system.
a. Character creation and development that matters. I don't want a character creation and development system reminiscent of Dungeon Siege. I want to be able to make choices, set priorities and to be able to differentiate my character from others - both inter and intra class. I want to be able to play viable rogue builds, accepting that there will be a loss in performance. IMO any system that tries for equal class  balance will fail and the rock-paper-scissors class concept is probably superior (although there’s always the PvE v PvP spec question – particularly if raid loot is major source of toon powerups).
The ability to create a unique character, which personifies your playing style and desired role in the game is one of cornerstones of the design of this game. This is also one of the reasons why the game doesn't use predefined classes, instead your character is developed by simply doing whatever you wish to be doing and in doing so your characters abilities change to reflect this. A rock paper scissor system is applied over the character attributes and even the gear and weaponry to ensure balance is maintained. Raid loot is not the only way of getting a top notch set of gear for your character and there is little difference between what gear or specs you'd use for PvE and PvP. Every character and each piece of gear that's viable in PvE will have a use in PvP as well.

b. Character leveling that is relatively quick – a journey not an end in itself.
Character leveling is of course something that'll be seeing a lot of tweaking during late alpha and beta phases, The most important goal when it comes to leveling in this game is removing the grind. Although we can't release too much information on specific systems at this time, the game is designed in such a way that you will spend very little time doing the typical: "Camp the area where enemy X spawns, kill enemy X till we get to level 10 then move on to killing enemy Y etc." Infact it's safe to say camping will get you nowhere as there is no typical "spawning" in this game.

c. Players empowered with information for toon development choices. I don't like the way that some developers 'hide' game information from players. Why shouldn't I know how the game calculates Attack, Defence, block, dodge, attack speed or the chance of getting a nasty disease from my insignificant other? I like to make choices AND I like my choices to be informed ones. I suspect that Devs who hide info do so to hide balance issues.
Our stat calculations are far simpler then those in many current day MMO's because the game features realtime combat there is no "hit/miss" percentage either. You'll get to see all the information you need to tweak your character, this information is however minimal and simple as the biggest part of getting better at this game is figuring out what specific abilities you want to be using and how to combine those in realtime combat.

d. The ability to respec. I want to be able to respec my characters if I make a mistake building them or when you guys nerf an ability(s) in the interests of ‘balance’. Make it a quest, make it an opportunity at a specific level (ala DAoC), make it a refiner NPC (ala SB), make it cost gold ala WoW - but make it possible.
Since your character changes according to your actions in a very fluid way, all leveling is reversible, all you have to do is throw out your gun and start using a sword (for example).

2. A meaningful metagame and challenging, choice-rich gameplay.
a. I want gameplay that is balanced for difficulty and level.
I think this one is pretty obvious.

b. I want a meaningful metagame for when I max out. I want player actions to be able to change the story arc – think Legend of the Five Rings or Shadowbane’s GvG city bane-ing focus as prime examples. DAoC’s RvR is a lesser beast. Avoid the EQ/WoW convention of an endless succession of new raid encounters with increasingly more dangerous mobs and uber loot. This is not a metagame – it’s a cash flow stratagem.
Shadowbane had a very extensive metagame, unfortunately that system was also the breaking point of the game, because it allowed the player to influence the world enough to "break" it. Kaos War will offer a meaningfull metagame, which allows the players to accumulate fame and fortune troughout their entire realm, but not at the expense of breaking the gameworld.

c. I want to see a mechanism to group guilds on servers according to their ability. On one of the old boards I called this performance tiered servers.
We have some specific mechanics in mind to uphold the balance of guilds across many realms (servers), however their exact form is as of yet undecided, so I will just let this question slip for now.

d. I want to be able to choose to play hardcore with the possibility of permadeath. Permadeath toons should also be auto-FFA loot (perhaps with one item they can ‘will’ to their successor) to add to the challenge. Perhaps give perma-death toons an XP bonus so that leveling a replacement is even less of a chore.
No definite yes or no on this feature yet, other then the fact that regular characters obviously do not have permadeath...

e. I want to be able to have a homestead. Player housing, rooms within a guild structure, something that I can spend my hard earned gold on and invite a succubus up to see my collection of mounted Angel Heads.
Housing "check", multiple sizes of guild accommodations "check", Angel heads... out of stock, maybe we can intrest you in a fine couch, cabinets to store your collected gear, some wall decorations, a well stocked fridge and a widescreen plasma TV though? ;)

f. I want PvP to have a purpose – preferably related to the metagame.
Yes and yes.

g. I want a convenient transportation system. I don't want to have to run, except into battle or to the bar.
"Dropship on standby at platform B4"

h. I want a game with adult, moral dimensions. The KW context suits it.
There's moral dimensions to be sure, but don't expect any "Hot Coffee".

[Damon]

Great Post Moloch we hear what you are saying, I think in many ways it is some of the same things we believe as well. There are a few of your points that I would also like to take a stab at.
One of the things that is taking us this amount of time is our technology is very advanced. I know this sounds like a lot of smoke, but it isn’t. A lot of the things you are talking about, the hard code base networking, the graphics systems that’s superior to all other mmos but takes less processing power? The proof is in the pudding as they say and again our length of time is directly linked to how we want you to view us as a competent, wonderfully talented company that finishes their products and delivers their promises.

I firmly believe that KW is the most ambitious mmo to date. Sure there are a lot of mmos, a lot of companies.
But there is this certain thing about KW, you feel it; it is intangible but visceral at the same time.

Another one of our top goals as you have mentioned is customer service. I am and always will be deeply committed to our customers. We rather think of our CS department as a "Caring Service". It isn’t impossible as a company you must have open communication with your customers. Our industry has garnered a very bad reputation of service and it is one of our goals to turn this around. We want to make the best first impression we can to our fans, current and future customers and make that last.

We want our community to be enthusiastic as much we are about KW.

[Moloch]

Shadowbane had a very extensive metagame, unfortunately that system was also the breaking point of the game, because it allowed the player to influence the world enough to "break" it.

The sb.exe errors had a great deal to do with it as well.

You're also right in that if a guild achieved dominance then the server tended to die as anyone who wasn't in that guild was slaughtered.

On the last boards I posted about performance-tiered servers, where guilds are automatically promoted or demoted according to their achievements over a set 'season'. The tiers would be pyramid shaped. This creates drama for the top and bottom guilds on a server as they struggle to achieve promotion or avoid demotion; this allows recognition of the best guilds in the game; this levels the playing field for all within a tier and prevents mismatched servers; this encourages competition; and it gives the metagame a degree of shape. It avoids the breaking of the meta-game you've refered to.

The downside is the coding and maintenance time required for server transfer of entire guilds, and a continuity issue if guilds can 'own' public territory or facilities. <shrug> I've got a couple of ideas that should easily fix the latter.

And feel free to call the top tiered server, "Tophet", the temple where Moloch was worshiped ;)

[jiisu]

Wow. I was going to post in this thread, but it looks like Loren pretty much went as far as any NDA would let you go. :-p

[Vali]

1. A robust and meaningful character system.
a. Character creation and development that matters. I don't want a character creation and development system reminiscent of Dungeon Siege. I want to be able to make choices, set priorities and to be able to differentiate my character from others - both inter and intra class. I want to be able to play viable rogue builds, accepting that there will be a loss in performance. IMO any system that tries for equal class balance will fail and the rock-paper-scissors class concept is probably superior (although there’s always the PvE v PvP spec question – particularly if raid loot is major source of toon powerups).
The ability to create a unique character, which personifies your playing style and desired role in the game is one of cornerstones of the design of this game. This is also one of the reasons why the game doesn't use predefined classes, instead your character is developed by simply doing whatever you wish to be doing and in doing so your characters abilities change to reflect this. A rock paper scissor system is applied over the character attributes and even the gear and weaponry to ensure balance is maintained. Raid loot is not the only way of getting a top notch set of gear for your character and there is little difference between what gear or specs you'd use for PvE and PvP. Every character and each piece of gear that's viable in PvE will have a use in PvP as well.


I enjoy the concept of no pre-defined classes. But how do you deal with the gamer? RPG'ers are easy in that they will accept choices based on theme and not the min/max style a gamer would.

Too bad the gamers are out there. They are looking at game mechanics and trying to figure out the absolute most productive way to play the game. Worse yet these folks will post their findings on websites and sooner or later these strategies will be expected by guilds. Essentially you run into a class system anyways.

Unfortunately Im a gamer.

Though I would agree that WoW is too restrictive. AO was probably a bit much.


-V

[Vali]

On the last boards I posted about performance-tiered servers, where guilds are automatically promoted or demoted according to their achievements over a set 'season'. The tiers would be pyramid shaped. This creates drama for the top and bottom guilds on a server as they struggle to achieve promotion or avoid demotion; this allows recognition of the best guilds in the game; this levels the playing field for all within a tier and prevents mismatched servers; this encourages competition; and it gives the metagame a degree of shape. It avoids the breaking of the meta-game you've refered to.



Found my response -


Thats pretty interesting with tiered servers / guilds - albiet.. how would guild recruitment work?

Would you envision recruiting from lower tiered servers? Because honestly, if your guild is hot **** enough to make it to Trophet your sure as hell not leaving your guild for another in Trophet - well, not the majority of players at least. If your not going to allow them to recruit from lower tiered servers, attrition is -more than likely- going to relegate your guild at some point in the future.

Which, doesnt have to be a bad thing -

If you can recruit from lower tiered servers, chances are just being in Trophet is going to provide enough incintive to keep your numbers up. Maybe enough to save relegation completely, depending on what you classify as acceptance for promotion or removal from a specific server.

Although - I would be interested in what your "achievements" would be? Because it could, quite possibly be the "honor" youve gained - and then simply its the same as WoW just being on a guild scale rather than a personal one.

Possibly how quickly you've accomplished PVE aspects? PVP aspects? Both? In WoW terms - how quickly your guild defeated the Twin Emps after AQ was released?

Whats the benefit of being in Trophet? Id assume each tier comes with better gear along with the benefit of playing against higher quality opponents. Can you use your higher tier gear once youve been relegated?

Pretty interesting, either way

-V

[Jacob]

For the most part these are the types of things we need in a MMORPG. They are quite lacking as of now.
1. A robust and meaningful character system.

a. Character creation and development that matters. I don't want a character creation and development system reminiscent of Dungeon Siege. I want to be able to make choices, set priorities and to be able to differentiate my character from others - both inter and intra class. I want to be able to play viable rogue builds, accepting that there will be a loss in performance. IMO any system that tries for equal class balance will fail and the rock-paper-scissors class concept is probably superior (although there’s always the PvE v PvP spec question – particularly if raid loot is major source of toon powerups).


I believe this is a must have. Look at your rival, WoW. They are very few choices for looks at beginning game, that everyone picks almost the exact same thing. Character creation should be along the lines of City of heroes, it had a plethora of options to choose from. The rock, paper, and scissors formula is a very fun system, but for the majority, everyone thinks they should be able to beat everyone else. If you want to rival something like WoW, you have to keep that in mind. I love being able to completely destroy other classes and with that i accept that someone else will bring me down.


b. Character leveling that is relatively quick – a journey not an end in itself.


Let's take a look at two completely different games, FFXI and WoW. FFXI is a HUGE time sink to get to 75(current max) and requires you party from level 10 up. With this method, you have everyone slowly climbing the levels so it gives you time to put in more middle/ end game content, but seeing how long it takes deters most people from getting to those higher levels and quits. (i got to about 50 about quit for WoW, hehe) Then you have WoW where you can solo the whole game, 1-60 in a matter of a few months. This leaves everyone the developer constantly trying to pump out end game content while forgetting the low / middle leveled content. The developers are still trying to "catch up" to the players here, which in my eyes was a bad move. This turns the game into a “Raiding” game, where everyone rushes to the next dungeon the developers put, then go on to beat it three days later. They should have slowed the leveling process a bit in order to fully flush out the game world. So, IMO, you need a combination of the two.


c. Players empowered with information for toon development choices. I don't like the way that some developers 'hide' game information from players. Why shouldn't I know how the game calculates Attack, Defence, block, dodge, attack speed or the chance of getting a nasty disease from my insignificant other? I like to make choices AND I like my choices to be informed ones. I suspect that Devs who hide info do so to hide balance issues.


Agreed.


d. The ability to respec. I want to be able to respec my characters if I make a mistake building them or when you guys nerf an ability(s) in the interests of ‘balance’. Make it a quest, make it an opportunity at a specific level (ala DAoC), make it a refiner NPC (ala SB), make it cost gold ala WoW - but make it possible.


Agreed once again.

Sorry for my horrible writing / grammar skills, writing just isn't my thing. Oh, and Hello, I am new here. :)

[Moloch]

Last night myself and about 50 of my guildies (allowing for subs) spent 7 hours running Black Wing Lair. It took a while because we had a lot of alts and were taking a paying passenger along. During that run our loot was about 30% redundant - mainly Bind on Pickup set pieces that the toons present already had or substandard BoP purples. Sure you can DE the loot but the frustration of this random loot from major time commitment is eating at the heart of the game's 'stickiness' for my guild.

For god's sake introduce a loot system that (if you want) addresses twinking but allows guilds to choose from the loot they need.

Additionally, if you're going to go with a binding type system for loot then have a system that allows BoP items to be BoE within the guild that earned them.

If it lives up to it's E3 rep then I can see us hightailing it out of WoW for Warhammer (the properly developed RvR system is a great incentive) or Darkfall if it appears out of the vapours.

[Moloch]

Then you have WoW where you can solo the whole game, 1-60 in a matter of a few months. This leaves everyone the developer constantly trying to pump out end game content while forgetting the low / middle leveled content. The developers are still trying to "catch up" to the players here, which in my eyes was a bad move. This turns the game into a “Raiding” game, where everyone rushes to the next dungeon the developers put, then go on to beat it three days later. They should have slowed the leveling process a bit in order to fully flush out the game world.

Hardcore players will bypass content in favour of the most efficient way to get to cap. In WoW you cluster quests and grind. And there's nothing wrong to getting to cap in a few months, as long as the metagame is worthwhile. The issue with WoW is that the metagame is simply more grind for loot (be it through boss or rep farming).

WoW was designed as a raiding game along the EQ model from the outset. Loathe it or love it, the EQ loot raiding model provides longevity for the game as a business, as it provides a constant carrot for achievers to pursue. As a member of a high end raiding guild, I know that it takes a considerable amount of practice and investment of time (to farm pots, resist gear and the like) to reduce the bosses to farm status. The very best PvE guilds like FoH may do it in far less time than most, but the average player has not even seen the inside of BWL, let alone mastered Molten Core. That's why we get paid to take non-guildies on 'tours' of BWL/AQ. "Three days later" is so far off the mark it doesn't work, even as hyperbole.

For me, the point of levelling is threefold: firstly it introduces you to game mechanics; secondly it allows you to learn how to play your 'class', including it's role in a group; and thirdly it allows you to make decisions as to how to develop your toon according to the customisation choices available. For RPers, it also allows them to do whatever it is that RPers do, say "Forsooth" alot I guess ;)

Again, IMO this and any game should be designed with the metagame in mind, and backcast from that. The journey should be interesting, but it's the destination that counts.

[Vali]

Indeed - I completely agree with Moloch (hes been saying for years now btw..)

A robust metagame really is the key to breaking open this market.

-V

[mitchell0073]

Because there is no real "set" appearance to how a demon should look, have you, the SRI team, considered having the Al-Gar be half demons. ( So a character could appear human, but with demonic features such as horns, bat wings, and glowing red eyes.) if you were to do this you could also make the Deva a race of half angels. This could also allow for when real angel or demon NPCs appear in game, you can have them be different in appearance from a regular player character, therefore adding an " awe" factor to possible boss characters.

[Paladin]

I think a tweaked Oblivion character creation system would be sweet, but I'm not sure how well an MMO could use it, as I'm sure the poly count is quite high. But there are several things I think you have to have:

Height sliders, and possibly body build size. Like thin, muscular or overweight (maybe a beer-gut looking weight :D) Idk, just don't stick with the basic "face and hair colors/appearance." because everybody still looks the same in every other way...

And I enjoy GW's system over WoWs, the ability to see the faces and select through them rather than having to click a billion times just to realize you've been looking at the same 3 options several times over.

[Damon]

Good points everyone keep these going :)

[ruination]

Incorporating swords/armor and guns into combat without one having a huge advantage over the other would be nice.

[andoy]

I hope KW's gonna have Auction House System that WOW has. :P

[Paladin]

I think you said you're going to try and get rid of grinding... so I wanna bring up the nerfbat. If people are farming a certain area for hours on end for there riches... isn't it good they're playing? don't nerf EVERY single spot... because what will the players want to do ? waste even more time getting less gold, or quit playing? :O

[Loren_Roosendaal]

Oh no... it's the almighty nerfbat! ;)

Seriously though, we at SRI believe in a concept which I've pushed forward for a long time, that is the concept of "High Balance". I believe that too many MMO games in the past have resorted to "Low Balance", by this I mean a method of balancing where nerfing is far more common then boosting, essentialy dumbing down the gameplay slowly over the course of say, a year of beta. This often results in (too) slow paced combat and/or a generaly dull and similar feel to a lot of classes, weapons and spells. The concept of "High Balance" is aimed at preventing over-nerfing and keeping the intended pace and variety of the game mechanics intact.

So much for my overall rant on the nerfbat, back to grinding. When I said we wanted to get rid of grinding I also stated that the design we have when it comes to general PvE is not about farming a certain area for hours. This doesn't mean we are talking about nerfing such spots here, there simply aren't any regular spots which you can camp for hours in the design. Instead the system is set up to provide encounters for players that are out adventuring or actively keeping an eye out for opportunities that may arise. I know this might sound vague, but going into more detail right now is not an option. The main point is that you can expect grinding a spawn to level to be replaced by a wide variety of adventurous PvE related activities that are just as rewarding when it comes to leveling and gathering loot as grinding the spawns in any other game and a lot more fun and varied to boot!

A lot of people out there are still stuck in the frame of the Classic MMORPG, with the stereotypical spawns and leveling threadmill, there's good elements in classic MMO's and WoW is an ultimately polished and highly accessible implementation of such a classic MMO.

From my perspective, we've been through two generations of MMO's (I'll explain which they are sometime) and WoW is a perfectly polished 2nd generation MMO. Kaos War however is a true 3rd generation MMO, this fact alone makes Kaos War a radicaly different MMO, it means we're going to be replacing a large amount of MMO design paradigms with new concepts. Because of this fact it may be good to see Kaos War from a different aspect then that of the typical MMO title you're playing these days, because we can tell you, even though the familiar (but greatly expanded) character progression will ofcourse still be present, Kaos War is all about redefining the way people look at MMO games.

[Paladin]

How do I give you karma?

Excellent post :D

[Finn MacCool]

When I said we wanted to get rid of grinding I also stated that the design we have when it comes to general PvE is not about farming a certain area for hours. This doesn't mean we are talking about nerfing such spots here, there simply aren't any regular spots which you can camp for hours in the design. Instead the system is set up to provide encounters for players that are out adventuring or actively keeping an eye out for opportunities that may arise. I know this might sound vague, but going into more detail right now is not an option. The main point is that you can expect grinding a spawn to level to be replaced by a wide variety of adventurous PvE related activities that are just as rewarding when it comes to leveling and gathering loot as grinding the spawns in any other game and a lot more fun and varied to boot!


for the cancelled dragon empires they planned populations of mobs roaming the world (or parts
of it) that could be wiped out
quite a good solution, imo

[Loren_Roosendaal]

You can expect the same and a lot more in Kaos War.

[Paladin]

If you have a dying system... It would be sweet if you could dye different parts of each armor seperately... maybe have a primary/secondary color on each. And if you have any fiery weapons/armors (queue Fiery Dragon Sword from GW) it would be cool if you could color the FLAME color, not just the handle. I really want a blue fiery swordy :D

[a chewy rock]

I think a tweaked Oblivion character creation system would be sweet, but I'm not sure how well an MMO could use it, as I'm sure the poly count is quite high. But there are several things I think you have to have:

Height sliders, and possibly body build size. Like thin, muscular or overweight (maybe a beer-gut looking weight :D) Idk, just don't stick with the basic "face and hair colors/appearance." because everybody still looks the same in every other way...

And I enjoy GW's system over WoWs, the ability to see the faces and select through them rather than having to click a billion times just to realize you've been looking at the same 3 options several times over.


The character creation in Oblivion is really cool, but I don't know how it would work in an MMO and I think that your character's physique should reflect upon how you play with him/her. If your char. is in the front and up close in battle swinging a heavy sword and taking blows (that is if you get hit) he would look like the type.
You shouldn't start out a muscled and stuff then pick some long range weapon to use standing in the back picking off the enemies while some wimpy looking guy whos all scrawny is up front beating down guys with a huge sword.

[Zell]

Character creation is definitely important. I would like to design my own character, not make one out of pre-made designs. I think a lot of people would want that.

[Damon]

Character creation is definitely important. I would like to design my own character, not make one out of pre-made designs. I think a lot of people would want that.


Ask and you shall receive. :)

[Reomon]

Hey, I'm new to the "Kaos Legion" as it seems to be called, but I, like everyone else, have a few ideas as well. A good character creation system is important, but what about armor and weapons? I saw the episode where you said the armor would "evolve" with the character but does that mean every character will look the same at higher levels? I mean it doesn't really matter what the characters look like once you have all that armor on, they all look the same. And that's the problem. You'd need some kind of variety there. And the armor dye seems like a good pitch too but all the same armor sets in different colors would still be basically the same. Maybe if you gave some kind of control over what the armor would evolve into as the character progressed. like once you reach a certain level we, the player, could modify the armor to our liking. Seems a bit far-fetched. Just thought i'd add my 2 cents to the mix.

[Moloch]

I read an idea that seems to have promise from the Conan (http://www.ageofconan.com/conan/faq.html) MMO - that of "Formation Combat"

In Conan you can for the first time not only have a formation, but be in direct control of both your character, NPC’s and other players. The leader of the formation can decide on different formations and the degree of freedom the various players and NPC’s can have within the formation. The formation also serves as a cooperative travel system, yielding beneficial effects to the team as the collision of the formation itself protect the members at the rear. Formations yield beneficial bonuses to members, and offer a new type of depth to a RPG. In some cases it will be essential to pick the right formation to survive.

Regardless of how this will play out, IMO game developers should make tactics count. Skill use, chaining, and countermoves are a part. I'd also like to see a properly thought-out mob AI that takes into account mob group composition, numbers, terrain and the mob's purpose. Carefully crafted maps where terrain and resources are placed to support tactics would be an improvement. And a game that has mechanics for line of sight, collision detection, height, terrain effects on movement, and bonuses for attacks from the flank or rear would be a bonus.

Would "formation combat" add anything? Perhaps.

[eniac]

dildo of maven!!!



neocrons rare flashlight !!

[eniac]

sirous i wanne see nice pvp where personal skill mathers just as much as level.. i do not like that leveld based pvp...

[jiisu]

Hey, I'm new to the "Kaos Legion" as it seems to be called, but I, like everyone else, have a few ideas as well. A good character creation system is important, but what about armor and weapons? I saw the episode where you said the armor would "evolve" with the character but does that mean every character will look the same at higher levels?

Welcome to the Legion my boy! Let whichever faction you pick's boss man grant you whatever that faction considers worthwhile!

What you saw in the episode is indeed an idea we are working with. With that said, I just want to say that the world of Kaos War is a new one that, for the most part, does not adhere to the rules and regulations that are commonplace in the world of MMOs today. From Kaos War, I would expect nearly ever top tier character to look different. One thing that drives this title is individuality. It is a theme that each member of the Dev team holds close to their hearts when it comes to existing in a virtual setting. We want everyone to have a sense of accomplishment, so I would expect to see a MASSIVE catalog of armor and weapons that not only look different, but server different purposes all around.

I really wish I could get into the details, but all good things come to those that wait. :P

[Insain_Man3]

Kaoswar has the best, I can see that already... this has probably already been covered, but good characterisation is really important to me, and giving characters personality and things. This comes into believeable AI and stuff like that. One game I thought that had great AI was Oblivion. I know things like this arent really suitable for MMO because they did the best they could to be a single player game, but I still loved it.

I know it sounds strange... but if you have any ladders in the game... make the climbing of the ladders realistic... Cuz I've seen so many games where climbing ladders looks very slipshod, and its just been one of those annoying things, like when someone shines a really bright light in your eyes.

I know that isnt much, but thats really all I have to say, because the game sounds simply mindblowing, and I know you'll do a great job of it!

[Moloch]

I'm disappointed with what WoW is offering for world PvP. Meet two different objectives and get <drumroll> a buff!

PvP has to have some point if killing in itself isn't the point. IMO the point, however shouldn't be something that provides positive reinforcement to a PVP win. Otherwise the side that has more numbers, better gear, better coord through vent, better ping, or better skillz will just own the other side harder.

For the WoW example, you could offer the winning side (say) a 10% increase in their gold earned from mobs in that region (or increase the chance of a random world drop), while giving the losing side a combat buff to encourage and help them reverse the situation. Still weak, but better than the unimaginative tripe that Blizz are dishing up as world PvP.

[Damon]

I really do think Sol put it best. Kaos War will have meaningful PvP out the Gate. We are really keen on what works and what doesn't work. I think out of all the games on the horizon we hope that players that are serious about massive PvP and are playing WoW or GuildWars finds what they are looking for in KW. I also hope to give Epic PvE raiding without letting items rot, or having upgraded tiers of weapons and armor. We believe the Kaos War item, weapon, and armor progression system is quite revolutionary. There is timing for everything and we will let future KW players know soon. We are really into the
"Now is that just cool and FUN or what!" I believe we have the key in so many areas for players around the world. That is why we started this company. To drive innovation and games to a whole new level if we can.

"Kaos War! Putting War back into gaming!"

[hanstin]

"Kaos War! Putting War back into gaming!"



good words from a wise man

[Stiler]

Here's a collection of my thoughts, I'll post what I can type but it'll probally be a bit long.

1. Skills

I already know Kaos war is planning on a skill system and all I have to say is YES! :), I highly prefer a natural "you use it you get better at it" system over the restrictive "class" systems.

2. Gear This is a big factor for me. I have became very tired of how most mmo's treat gear as the big thing. "Uber gear" as some call it imo ruins pvp. It takes the skill away from the players and places it simply into those who can raid or such. I'd really like to see an mmo that makes gear simply be a tool through which the characters skills work with the player skill being the important thing.

So it'd be like Player skill>Character skill>gear.

It never really made much sense to me how a sword in the hands of an experienced swordsman can somehow suck simply because it's sword "x" instead of "y." I mean think about it, if someone has spent 20 years training and fighting with a sword and you give him even a crappy sword do you think his skills just disappear? If you gave someone who had never used a sword before a pristine finely crafted sword and then had him fight the veteran swordsman you think the veteran would lose?

Now i'm not saying gear can't have some impact, as it should, but it just shouldn't be "that" important more then player or character skill.

Like for example, a better crafted sword would have a higher durability then a cheap sword/one you found in a dank cave. Which in turn makes it last longer and might even cause the other weapon to break in a battle (only if it's low durability).

Also another gear factor is restrictions via Race and such. Not sure what's planned for Kaos War in this factor but I'd love to see no restrictions. Rather just have the character skill have an effect on it.

IE - if you suck at swordsmanship you can still pick up and use any sword, however how good your character is with it is determined by his skills not the weapon.

3. PVP: This is a big thing for me, I'm a huge pvp fan. I came from the early UO days, back when it was the free open pvp system with no trammel/felucia stuff going on.

I know (from the sounds of what I've read) that kaos war is planning on a faction type of system, however I'd love to see an open pvp system.

Where anyone can attack anyone else, without restrictions. However there should be consequences for your actions.

A good pvp system needs reasons both to attack someone and reasons not to. To keep a balance of pkers and such.

The main reasons I love open pvp systems (UO/EVE) is because of the community they create. When you play a game with open pvp it ends up putting players on that edge that you simply don't get in restricted pvp enviroments, where people can hide based on their race or the area they are in. It also breeds a sense of suspense that you normally don't find on other systems. Where combat and suprises can happen almost anywhere.

Open pvp systems don't equal chaos (haha pun :p ) like some think, you'll have pkers and anti-pkers asewll as many in-between. People banding together for their views/styles and other things between them.

4. Customization This is another big thing that IMO most mmo's lack. You probally thought I was goin to talk about the character creation? Nope, many newer mmorpgs have decent character generation with all their sliders and what not. What i'm talking about is both Item customization and actual character gameplay customization.

In many mmo's (Espically class based ones) you end up with cookie cutter characters. Where one swordsman = another one. Where they share many common skills and end up revolving around the same basic strategies.

Since Kaos War is using a skill system I'm hoping it breeds a more diverse and free-form playing characters. Where two players that may be use swords in combat can play out totally different.

Where one guy might rely on using quick precise strikes the other might rely more on sheer strength and power, etc With many different combat moves among them and others that give them their own "playstyle" so to speak.

The other thing I was talking about, Item Customization. I'm talking about three main things here, Armour, weapons, and clothing.

In many mmo's you can have all the sliders for characters you want, but most of the time the characters end up being covered head to toe in the same excat looking armour as many other characters.

I'm not sure what Kaos war has planned as far as crafters and such go, but I'd love for crafters to actually have a say on what Items look like.

Basically the crafters (depending on their skill) have certain styles/looks to the things they can craft. They can get more styles by gainging a higher skill aswell as also "unlocking" them via quests/finding them.

Even the players could take part in this. Imagine for example you read a book in the game and it ends up talking about the heroes armour/weapon. After you read that in the game it "unlocks" that look for you and a crafter is able to make such a look for you.

If anyone here has played City of Heroes then you know how excellent this could work.

Here's how the mechanics of crafting it could work:

First he chooses the type of armour (IE leather/chain etc). Then once he choose the type of armour he chooses the first "base" plate design.

After he chooses the base plate then it moves up to addin things onto the base plate. Like adding certain Etchings or other things.

Then after that choice comes the color design. The armour could be dyed (it could be limited to color choices that fit in with the atmosphere/theme of the game, IE - no bright pink :p ).

I think such a system would be EXCELLENT and provide people wiht a lot of unique looks for their characters.

I also think it'd be nice if clothing could be mixed with armour and such, layered together and what not. Where you can have clothing under/over certain different armours and make your character look even more different.

5. Combat I covered this is another post on the forum. However speaking about Animation wise, I encourage the developers to try to look toward western martial arts.

In many games that have melee combat, even if it's a more european style game they end up trying to make combat look like it's some kung fu style thing.

Here is a very very good site that should be extremely helpful in learning about general western sworsmanship and such things:

http://www.thearma.org/essays.htm

Also some combat manuals can be found here:
http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm


Another aspect of combat I can get into more info about:
Shields.

In most games shields serve one purpose, to block. Sometimes in the rare cases you can bash with it. A bigger shield in most games is always better, there's no reason to not use a big tower shield over a small one.

You see, this is a pretty much a very general and "blah" way to do shields, it pretty much ignores basic advantages of shields and things, it basically makes you put little thought into your shield.

Here are some of my idea's to make shields better:

Advantages/Dis-advantages to the types.

This is where most games fail at their shields. Bigger shields are ALWAYS "better" in most games, There's no reason to use smaller shields, like bucklers and such over a tower shield. There should be though. Bigger isn't always better.

For example:

Smaller shields are faster, but obviously don't offer as much protection in terms of size as a heater shield. However because they are smaller they also give you more view around them during combat. Since they are faster you can block melee blows quicker in terms of speed.

Bigger shields are slower then the smaller shields, but offer a bigger range of protection. Though because of their size during combat when you're hiding behind it it will take up more of your viewing area. They protect you better against missle attacks (arrows/etc) then a smaller shield.

Those of some of the main advtanages/disadvantages.


Additions to shields:

Another aspect that most games ignore about shields, are the things that some shields use.

For example:

Sword breakers: A spike type piece coming out of the middle of a buckler or such, that generally had the ability to wear down the enemies sword faster then usual, or break it.

They also had blade catches (the name for it escapes me at the moment) that basically came out and then pointing in another direction. Basically So when someone hit your shield, it would catch on the latch and you could pull it out of their hands.

Those type of things were generally seen on bucklers and smaller/med shields moreso then on the big/heavier shields.


6. A dynamic world. What I mean by this is a world in which things change. Many mmo's feel too "static" and like nothing ever really happens.

The best game to do this to date imo was Asherons call. They actually had monthly updates that with each month added something to the game sometimes to do with the storyline or other things.

I mean literally you'd read the storyline about some big "hive ships" or such being seen hovering in the skies above certain cities. Then you'd login to the game and BAM , there they were, physically in the game. It made the world feel like things were actually changing quite a bit.

Another key aspect is having certain events that involve player action.

Like in Ultima online for example. There was one time that the undead attacked Trisnic. I mean literally a huge army of undead attacked the city. A bunch of players gathered to try to help defend it and push back, it was such a fun event. It seems a shame that so many mmo's could do this stuff but don't, it's easily some of the best mmorpg memories I have had and makes them stand out a lot.

Next is the Weather/season aspect.


It would be nice as time goes by so do seasons. Fall , winter, summer, etc. It's been done in games before (like asherons call).

I'm getting tired of the usual "go north for snow, south for desert" etc.

Like imagine you come into town one morning and snow is gently fallin down, it's laid a bit on the ground, not much though, still patches of grass here and there. Then later that evening after questing you ride into town and the snow is coming down heavy and the ground is covered in a thick blanket of snow.

It would be nice too if things actually impacted in the snow (footprints, depth to it, etc)

speaking more about non-direct season weather It'd be sweet to see Thunderstorms and other weather events actually form/change as they should. Where you can look out into the sky and see the darkened sky in the distance and watch as it moves wherever it does. If it comes to you then it starts off with a slight rain and then as it gets futher overhead comes down harder, etc.

7. Eating/drinking
IMO i'd like to have food/drink in game and use it.

It can be done without having to be "annoying" and having your guy go "i'm hungry" every 10 minutes.

Basically a system like:

Generally to stay in tip top condition you eat "x" amount of times per day.

However if you fall below whatever the dev's fit for "x" it doesn't Kill you like other games (that's too heavy if you ask me).

Instead it justs has a very slight negative impact to fatigue or whatever. Not much at first. The more you keep not

You could go for three weeks or so (game time) without food to the point you'd REALLY want to eat something.

for water/drinking, it would do it automatically , since you'd drink more then eat (logically), this way the drinking wouldn't be so "annoying."


Now food/drinks you could buy in the store, or get yourself.

In the wild you can get food from plants (berries, among other things) or hunt animals and then take the meat/cook it or whatever and use that for food. This would making hunting have another good reason to do and purpose.

For water, you can get it from streams/creeks and such, just have a thing to put the water in.

Having this (imo) wouldn't make the game "less" fun, but more fun.

What this can do is actually make travelling and exploring have other impacts because being nothing more then "cosmetic."

8. The Economy

Not quite sure what is planned so far as the economy of the games go.

I prefer to see a player ran economy. Where the meat of a players gear is made up more from crafters then PVE drops. Where items will take a durability hit and can be reparied, but not fully repaired and eventually need to be replaced (Thus creating an economy that revolves and doesn't stop only to start with new players).


Ok, that's it for now, waaaaaaay too much typing for me :p.

[CJ_Wallace]

4. Customization This is another big thing that IMO most mmo's lack. You probally thought I was goin to talk about the character creation? Nope, many newer mmorpgs have decent character generation with all their sliders and what not. What i'm talking about is both Item customization and actual character gameplay customization.

In many mmo's (Espically class based ones) you end up with cookie cutter characters. Where one swordsman = another one. Where they share many common skills and end up revolving around the same basic strategies.

Since Kaos War is using a skill system I'm hoping it breeds a more diverse and free-form playing characters. Where two players that may be use swords in combat can play out totally different

Without going heavily into specifics and I believe Damon mentioned something along these same lines in another thread, what we are working on currently will more than likely make you drool if this is truly how you feel. Custom options for me is one of my top priorities.

[Mister Matt]

will Kaos War be only on PC, or will it be on 360 and PS3 or all three?

[Badgerc82]

At the moment the development is Windows orientated, but we have left the engine very open and it would not be an impossibility the we may launch on another platform if we feel that it can provide the same experiences for players and the demand is there.

[Dooberoo]

My wants are simple, crafting for me is a priority. PVP is...ok, but I absolutely do not want forced into it. Nothing worse than a jerk who won`t back off, and gets off on rubbing it in your face if the person stomps you into the ground.
The only time I would use PVP in EQ was to test out new spells in the Freeport Arena. Its all PVE for me.
- Oh yeah, the dye for armor in EQ looked God Awful, and funny.
- Solo friendly would be great to, I do not always have time to get a group.

[hanstin]

1. Landscape
i would like huge landscapes as far as the eye can see always CHANGING @ World of warcraft there is quiete alot of landscape but once youve seen it then youve seen it all there is ALWAYS the same old stuff nothing new stuff dont grow or get broken down etc. like if there was a huge battlefield @ a keep and the oposing side used bombs or what ever then you realy see stuff get broken down falling.
also Different landscape wow has like 5 landscapes that they use in like 40 zone's orso what we saw from the demo was amazing just amazing if landscapes get the look like that it willl defenatly be a hit(beware looks arent everything)

2. Gameplay
I would like it to be as easy as wow, i mean you can start the game without ever played on the pc or a mmorpg and still be understand able, i dont want hard questions or brainkillers etc

3. Servers
I would like Different servers to be able to play on like wow has pvp pve RP PVPRP with a wide choice, i also would like to have minimum or no lag at all sometimes @ wow it goes out the roof with 1k+ MS i mean you just CANT play with that much i would like them to be stable and reliable not those whom go down once every 5 minutes.

4. Service
Customer service is VERY imporant if you dont listen to your customers then your game will fail just like that just plain simply fail, listen to there suggestions listen to what they want and what would be great dont make bold moves.

5. Lore
Lore drives alot of gameplay i would like to have a good lore who doesent suddenly change to something you would never expect in the era or is TOTALY different from where the road was leading i know kaos war has a 5 year span orso but those 5 years gotta have good lore.

6. PVP
I would like to have it easy fun and some sort of honor system, if there is gonna be a honor system then dont make it a grind think of something else yet dont make it that easy that everybody can get it just like that then its not realy cool.
i would like to see PVP Quests and big ass siege's.

7. PVE
I would like to see ever changing PVE i mean bosses evolve they grow stronger so it wont be always that easy and yet there is a sort of challenge in it, i would love to see aeriel city's that has been taken over by the darkest of our hearts and is now under its control and we have to defeat it that or just some mobs killed all the citizens.
i would LOVE to see underwater city's and underground city's i think it adds another extra.


thats about it for now i cant come up with anything ATM
please if your gonna post in this thread then only talk about this thread not something else

p.s. World first with 300+ post >.<" srry just had to

[jiisu]

1. Landscape
i would like huge landscapes as far as the eye can see always CHANGING @ World of warcraft there is quiete alot of landscape but once youve seen it then youve seen it all there is ALWAYS the same old stuff nothing new stuff dont grow or get broken down etc. like if there was a huge battlefield @ a keep and the oposing side used bombs or what ever then you realy see stuff get broken down falling.
also Different landscape wow has like 5 landscapes that they use in like 40 zone's orso what we saw from the demo was amazing just amazing if landscapes get the look like that it willl defenatly be a hit(beware looks arent everything)

2. Gameplay
I would like it to be as easy as wow, i mean you can start the game without ever played on the pc or a mmorpg and still be understand able, i dont want hard questions or brainkillers etc

3. Servers
I would like Different servers to be able to play on like wow has pvp pve RP PVPRP with a wide choice, i also would like to have minimum or no lag at all sometimes @ wow it goes out the roof with 1k+ MS i mean you just CANT play with that much i would like them to be stable and reliable not those whom go down once every 5 minutes.

4. Service
Customer service is VERY imporant if you dont listen to your customers then your game will fail just like that just plain simply fail, listen to there suggestions listen to what they want and what would be great dont make bold moves.

5. Lore
Lore drives alot of gameplay i would like to have a good lore who doesent suddenly change to something you would never expect in the era or is TOTALY different from where the road was leading i know kaos war has a 5 year span orso but those 5 years gotta have good lore.

6. PVP
I would like to have it easy fun and some sort of honor system, if there is gonna be a honor system then dont make it a grind think of something else yet dont make it that easy that everybody can get it just like that then its not realy cool.
i would like to see PVP Quests and big ass siege's.

7. PVE
I would like to see ever changing PVE i mean bosses evolve they grow stronger so it wont be always that easy and yet there is a sort of challenge in it, i would love to see aeriel city's that has been taken over by the darkest of our hearts and is now under its control and we have to defeat it that or just some mobs killed all the citizens.
i would LOVE to see underwater city's and underground city's i think it adds another extra.


thats about it for now i cant come up with anything ATM
please if your gonna post in this thread then only talk about this thread not something else

p.s. World first with 300+ post >.<" srry just had to


Check... Check... Check... Check... Check... Check... Check... =D

[hanstin]

Sweet ;D

[Moloch]

Time to resurrect an old thread with some observations after playing around on Pirates otBS and Hellgate on my return.

PotBS shone in naval combat, although (which you quickly learned) turning into the wind was always frustrating. It also had a very interesting take on PvP viability as it made higher level ships very powerful but relatively slow and ungainly. PvP as a meaningful game mechanic was built into the game from the start with the contention system – although the 3 day penalty for losing a port to the Pirates was too light. Three major weaknesses were the avatar combat – appalling; the overly complex economic production model (particularly on low population servers) which actually hindered gameplay rather than enhanced it; and too many factions – who in their right mind would want to play the French?!

Hellgate suffers from a repetitious tileset, a lack of a mail system, no Auction House, and some dumb AI with many mobs sitting rock steady at range while you snipe them to death. But it does have the attraction of an Elite and a Hardcore mode. I rushed through the content to get to HCE to relive the old days of D2:LOD. It was a buzz, those of you who haven’t played HC don’t realize just how much it adds to your involvement in the game. It’s a personal choice of course, and not a good way to playtest new boss encounters ;). Both options also make the gameplay content last longer, Elite mode because the gameplay is harder, and HC because you play more conservatively as well as emphasizing different builds that prioritize survivability. Finally, it also provides a built in value sink as toons die, and a status system that lets you know who the really good players are – people recognize the care and skill that go into a HCE level 50 toon, while a level 50 normal toon is little more than an inevitability. Another thing that Hellgate does well is the variety of gameplay due to talent differentiation; the classes play very differently. The FPS-style Engineer and Marksman are good fun, although I’d like to see a damage model that rewards a headshot.

In summary, I’d like to see KW adopt an economic system that emphasizes involvement over complexity, meaningful PvP, a varied tileset, a hardcore mode (as a choice), an elite mode (as a choice), mail and an AH at launch, and a damage differentiation model (even a simple one). The choice to limit KW to three factions is a good one, factions > 2 dissipates the gameplay unless you have a very strong player base. I’d argue that KW could adopt a 2+1 model: Demons and Angels are PvP enabled, humans are PvE only unless they choose to ally themselves with either faction.

[a chewy rock]

I agree with just about everything Moloch said in his last paragraph. It makes sense for the humans, being thrown into this struggle between Deva and Al'gar, to have to form an alliance rather than try to take on whoever they can.

[amz181]

hmm what do i want...

in no particular order

* Large weak mobs, instead of normal grind-worthy monsters, with plentiful demi-bosses

* Intuitive movement, maybe the WASD setup or something altogether better, and please include the ability to change your controls

* IMPORTANT!!!
Oh please, can you please just include keys for zooming, i get so pissed of at MMO's not including zoom keys, and mapping zoom instead to the mouse wheel, which many laptop users like me, dont have. It gets really annoying, and to add to my frustration, often its somehow picks up the mopuse wheel and zooms all the way in or out, making the game unplayable, and i have to start the whole game again to reset it. PLEASE!!!!

* Shortcuts, or passages to scret areas, that can only be used not when reaching a certain level but obtaining a certain skill, so say for the demons, a firebreathing skill which melts alot of ice that blocks a pathway.

* lots of secret areas, some which are accesible by everyone, but are really hard to find, like touching a tree, out of hundreds which transports you somewhere really cool.

* A wide variety of skills that you can level, fishing, mining etc. The more you have, the better the games economy becomes.

well thats a couple, i may add more if any occur to me :p

moloch> How'd you get the avatar? :P

[Damon]

Great thread. Thanks for resurrecting it Moloch. We will have Elite Servers and the way you get there is much more enjoyable experience for dedicated players.
It will definitely be something worth fighting for. =)

[fanatik]

Great thread. Thanks for resurrecting it Moloch. We will have Elite Servers and the way you get there is much more enjoyable experience for dedicated players.
It will definitely be something worth fighting for. =)

Now that sounds promising. :D I think Moloch's final statement is pretty standard in what most of us MMO players are looking for. It's just that some of those items mean different things to different people.

[Lord Aries]

Demons and Angels are PvP enabled, humans are PvE only unless they choose to ally themselves with either faction.

I like that idea actually.

[Rauko]

See this thread and my post there about faction relations and how player's own actions/decisions could play into it:

http://www.kaoswar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=676

[Spartan]

Cool. I have a friend who will more than likely put 100+ hours into KW. He started in Cabal last week and is already at level 92. He has no life, I wish I was him, lol.

[Moloch]

One of the few remaining members of my guild who still plays WoW wrote a recent post on their forums (I know, I know) about the difference in competitive PvP between playing on US servers and on Australian ones - because of ping.

It got me thinking about the nature of combat in KW, from the FAQ:

Kaos War is played from the first or third person perspective. Our combat system is a blend of many different styles, and incorporates something for everyone. First person shooter fans will enjoy certain aspects, while those who dislike “twitch” based combat will have other opportunities. Players can fight with ranged weaponry, melee weaponry, or spiritual powers.

If facing and melee range matter - and they should - then any ping based game will be won by the person with best ping - all else being equal. That puts non-US players at a massive disadvantage. Try playing a rogue V rogue mirror-match against a person with sub-50 ping when you're over 300.

No real suggestions here, just food for thought.

I recently spent a couple of weeks in the US for business. While I was there, I managed to find a couple of hours to play WoW.

And wow indeed... even though my ping readout from where I was in Seattle looked barely any better than it usually does from Brisbane Australia, playing the game was ENTIRELY different.

I only PvP now days, and ping obviously matters a lot in that space. The difference in PvP play experience on my priest was obvious, and enjoyable... on my feral druid the difference was nothing short of transformational - a completely different game. I romped through the couple of PuG v PuG BG's I played top of kills with minimal deaths, and I wasn't particularly trying (I was also near top of healing and was healing/cc'ing to save my team-mates skins ahead of just going for KBs). [comment kb = killing blows]

I have good gear and I know how to play, but normally when I'm playing from Australia it is a constant struggle and I don't remember the last time I topped KBs without specifically setting out to do so. And arena... well arena on a feral druid - lets say no more there.

Simple fact is, when packets need to cross the Pacific, the location and facing of players as I see them on my screen represents what reality was up to half a second ago. Even tho my ping readout can get as low as 250ms, I don't think it ever is really delivering performance that good. Constantly, CONSTANTLY it is a spam of messages that I have to be behind the guy I'm behind in order to shred them, or I'm not close enough when according to my screen I've run from behind them, through them, and 10 yards in front of them before I can even land a hit on a moving target. Heaven forbid that they change direction. Trying to compensate for it is really the game I play when I log into WoW, I rarely get beyond that obstacle to really be able to play the game.

Playing in the US there's none of that - I don't think I saw those messages once in the few hours I played except when it actually made sense based on what I could see on my screen. Then there is the difference in reaction time and how easy it is to interrupt...

So I guess this is a bit of a waaaaaaah, I want an Australia server cluster post. But really it is beyond that. I have now tasted the forbidden fruit, and I don't think I can go back to the stinking pile of refuse that I've been putting up with all these years. I tried tonight, and it almost made me sick.

At last report there were no plans for local Australasian servers. Without a sign of hope that that may change, I reckon I'm done. WoW is an awesome game and I have no immediate plans to go to any other MMO, none of what's coming out will match WoW at first (if ever) and will just have the same ping issues for me. But after 9 years of PvP'ing in MMOs I just can't settle for the frustration and mediocrity that my ping sentences me to, now knowing that it really IS as much better to be local to a server as I always suspected.

[Damon]

We are taking that very seriously Moloch. Ping is always an issue. We do have a freeform combat with melee and ranged and the most basic pillars of our game is to allow balance between the two with a wide range of skills and abilities. A monumental task but a beatable one. Ping is the second sacred issue. Let me assure you we know how you feel and what it all means. We are determined to tackle the issues head on and provide our competitive players with a great game balanced toward their region, ping, and skill.

[amz181]

gotta agree with moloch there. This game is looking great, and if you incorporate the ideas theres bound to be lag. Hopefully this doesnt turn into "lord of the pings."

[Spartan]

If anyone has played Cabal Online yet, no, maybe. They have:
Premium (almost always empty)
Regular (ALways FULL) and
War (Level 95+, Full).

They do it like that for
Diehard Fans,
Boo,
PvP (I like watching the Level 95's try to take out my friend who is level 114, huge gap in power, I mean HUGE!!!!)

[Nurvus]

The way things are implemented makes a huge difference.

For example, Guild Wars "low pool + high regen" formula - similar to WoW's rogues - is, in my opinion, alot better than WoW's "huge pool + low regen + global cooldown to clean the mess" formula, not only in concept, but also where it comes to dps and lag issues.

That goes for both spells and physical attacks.

I mean, who fights, jumps or runs endlessly? At least in Diablo 2 there was Stamina, but still it was only valid for running.
It's not all about rage and whatnot.

If something like Stamina & Mana is implemented to manage physical and spiritual actions respectively, in a way similar to Guild Wars, or at least not like WoW, the game can naturally put a stranglehold on the mass of "actions" performed by a player in a short span, if he wants to keep going for long.
---------------------------
Cabal Online, Rising Force Online and Lineage II are ridiculous grinding games with no sense of reward.
You fight for hours to get rich to buy stuff. But in the end all your effort is destroyed by sheer luck.
Crafting is all about luck, and lots of it.
Someone can become a high level crafter in a few days, while others may take months, due to shrinking, consecutive chances for success when trying to improve your crafting.

I mean, I checked it out for a while, and soon realized you play the whole game with only the "end game" in sight, having nearly no fun, and when you get to the end game, it sucks. It's even higher grinding.
You soon stop thinking in terms of hours of play, and start thinking in terms of "dozens of dungeons" you must do to get somewhere noticeable...

>>I rather take 5 minutes per mob, and it giving something I can absolutely make use of, like gear, crafting materials, or wrecked gear that I can turn into crafting materials.... than killing 50 mobs, each with a 1% chance of giving me something reasonable, where 1 player may get it at the 1st mob, and another gets it at the last...

In this aspect, Guild Wars is alot more decent, and Final Fantasy XII presents a loot system, where your work eventually has good chaces to pay out.

I'll post a suggestion about it.

[EDB700]

Hmmm...what I'd like to see in KW...first, it would be nice if the character's appearance would evolve according to the player's choices in game (think Black & White, if you like): if a player is a hardcore PKer, that should be reflected in the appearance (having some really brutal & harsh features, a more 'demonic look, and so on). If someone's toon is using mostly melee attacks and weapons that rely on strenght, that character should look muscular, large, etc, while a caster would look slim. Also, if your character gains any special abilities, they should be reflected in the toon's appearance. This could be calculated & applied by the game at fixed periods of time (if real time transformations/evolution is out of question). Also, regarding character & item costumisation: it would be nice to allow players not only dye the entire set of armor & weps, but also add their own mark to it: personal coat of arms, guild coat of arms, distinctive symbols for certain abilities, in game titles, etc; further more, clothing, armors and even weps should be region specific - if a certain weapon (let's say a sword) comes from a specific region, it should look slightly different than another sword that was created in a different region/zone; same goes to clothing, so you'd know where a certain player comes from. Also, top crafters should be allowed to add their own distinctive mark/emblem/brand to their creations, so you'd know who created that specific item. Such items would have unique attributes, that only that crafter can imbue them with (that would require a list of unique possible enhancement/attributes/abilities/bonuses that players could learn or get through special quests or job tests; once such an attribute is learned/won by a certain player, only he/she would be able to apply it to gear, and it would dissapear from the list).
Second: I'd like to be able to play on whatever server I want, with the same character; I hate games that limit characters to just one server, so if you decide to switch to a different one, you'll be forced to start all over again and create a new toon. What's the point in having multiple servers if the characters are server bound? Not to mention such a system would not solve the lag issues.
Last, but not least: I expect the game to offer complete freedom regarding the playing style: if some players like to solo the entire game, they should be able to do so; if others don't like PvP, they shouldn't be forced into; further more, if some players like crafting/selling more than questing/fighting, they should still be able to remain competitive; and I'd like to see a game that is not just a race to level cap - so that someone who returns after a break will still be able to enjoy it without feeling left out, while all his/her friends leveled up like crazy...

[amz181]

Hmmm...what I'd like to see in KW...first, it would be nice if the character's appearance would evolve according to the player's choices in game (think Black & White, if you like): if a player is a hardcore PKer, that should be reflected in the appearance (having some really brutal & harsh features, a more 'demonic look, and so on). If someone's toon is using mostly melee attacks and weapons that rely on strenght, that character should look muscular, large, etc, while a caster would look slim. Also, if your character gains any special abilities, they should be reflected in the toon's appearance. This could be calculated & applied by the game at fixed periods of time (if real time transformations/evolution is out of question). Also, regarding character & item costumisation: it would be nice to allow players not only dye the entire set of armor & weps, but also add their own mark to it: personal coat of arms, guild coat of arms, distinctive symbols for certain abilities, in game titles, etc; further more, clothing, armors and even weps should be region specific - if a certain weapon (let's say a sword) comes from a specific region, it should look slightly different than another sword that was created in a different region/zone; same goes to clothing, so you'd know where a certain player comes from. Also, top crafters should be allowed to add their own distinctive mark/emblem/brand to their creations, so you'd know who created that specific item. Such items would have unique attributes, that only that crafter can imbue them with (that would require a list of unique possible enhancement/attributes/abilities/bonuses that players could learn or get through special quests or job tests; once such an attribute is learned/won by a certain player, only he/she would be able to apply it to gear, and it would dissapear from the list).
Second: I'd like to be able to play on whatever server I want, with the same character; I hate games that limit characters to just one server, so if you decide to switch to a different one, you'll be forced to start all over again and create a new toon. What's the point in having multiple servers if the characters are server bound? Not to mention such a system would not solve the lag issues.
Last, but not least: I expect the game to offer complete freedom regarding the playing style: if some players like to solo the entire game, they should be able to do so; if others don't like PvP, they shouldn't be forced into; further more, if some players like crafting/selling more than questing/fighting, they should still be able to remain competitive; and I'd like to see a game that is not just a race to level cap - so that someone who returns after a break will still be able to enjoy it without feeling left out, while all his/her friends leveled up like crazy...

i like the idea of guild coats of arms.
and welcome ;)

[EDB700]

Thanks ;)

@Damon: looking forward to see the game up and running; I've seen the videos on the website regarding the game's development and all I can say is: "wow"! You sure decided to walk all the way - no compromises - in order to achieve your goal! After all this ends (well), you should write a book or make a movie about it, those little videos are unbelievable! I bet not many ppl (including me) had any idea through what hell you had to go in order to put the game together...

[Nurvus]

I'll add that the game that has satisfied me the most in character development was Neverwinter Nights.

The game has alot of flaws, but character development is not one of them.

You can determine one's attributes; you can make a fighter oriented for strong melee, agile melee or ranged, and you can mix him with mage to make him a spellblade of sorts.

So far the thing that makes or breaks NwN has been the campaign you played at - the environment and the gear, and how variate it is to accomodate your unique character build.

The only thing I regret not being able to do there is dual wield thrown weapons.

The depth of character specialization you can achieve with D&D system, is huge, and to me, an example worth looking at.

[Shiv]

Hello, i am new to the forums. Some things i would like to see in the game. I know someone mentioned item drops. For intance in grinding games like WoW and lineage II you don't always get something. But what about the things you fight, don't they have weapons, fur, claws and teeth. I want to know why i can't strip an enimies corpse naked? If my enimy is wearing fullplate and carrying a greataxe, why can't i take off his armor and steal his greataxe. In the elder scroll series you can do just that, i always thought it was a great feature that should be implimented in KW. Also as far as the image model for KW why not use the same system that Fable uses? Who here has played fable? I always thought it was great the way your character evolves by your actions. NWN has great character customization as far as a class based RPG goes but that is because it is based off the DnD roleplaying system. KW is not a class based game therefore character customization is already 100% You can already do whatever you want. Another good example of character customization is Elder Scrolls which is not a class based RPG.

Mainly i want to be able to take the loot that i see when i fight something. And for goodness sake i don't want to see boars dropping coins, what in the world is an animal going to do with currancy.

[amz181]

I want to know why i can't strip an enimies corpse naked?

Lol, you brought back the good old memories of Morrowind.

It was so satisfying to see you felled opponent stripped to the pants :p

Welcome BTW, im amz181, the best user u'll ever meet...period...

As for your idea, i agree, you should always be able to loot the corpse for what its wearing, and occasionally get something else which the beast could have found or taken from it's slaughtered victim. But yh, you should always be able to get goblin armour from armoured goblins, and if you include potion brewing an stuff (PLEASE DO!!!) You could get stuff from monster mobs like

Barbarian Brew (Increases strength temporarily)

2 Yeti skins
1 claw of wolf

Etc etc.....

[a chewy rock]

I'm always annoyed when I go on those gathering quests where you're supposed to collect 20 bat wings or rat tails or wolf fangs and the enemies dont drop them half the time. It should be a 100% drop for items like that. As far as weapons go, the majority of the ones used by enemies would have to be basic, merchant-sold weapons or ones that arent all too powerful. Same with armor. They would be mostly there to sell or salvage for materials.

Speaking of The Elder Scrolls.... that series is my favorite and, in my opinion, the best of RPG's out there as far as freedom goes. Morrowind moreso than Oblivion.

[claytondora]

This being my first post, I would like to say that I am ashamed of myself for everyday I missed out on this game. From what I've seen/heard concerning KW it has all the makings of an incredible experience.

Being a longtime patron when it comes to MMO's, I have found that dev teams that listen to the player base and are dedicated (and there is no team seemingly more dedicated then thou) to making an immersive and genuinely enjoyable experience tend to make great games.

The two MMO's I have played the most thoroughly are WoW and SWG. Each game is drastically different from the other, yet they both held my interest for a long time. This is because each one had something great to offer.

In SWG's case it was an unprecedented level of freedom, their tier system is still to date my favorite progression system out there. Being able to pursue a plethora of different progression routes and have them compliment each other (hybrid classes) was beautiful.

Their resource collection and crafting system was also quite good. In most other games I forgo crafting altogether. Most of the time its much more punishment then reward. Collecting resources can be a hassle and crafting just seemed not to be worth it. In galaxies however, it was a blast. The artisan tree was like any other, and you were rewarded for doing what you wanted to do. All in all what I took away from that experience was a sense of real involvement with my character and world and the freedom to

WoW offered something completely different. It offered very little freedom in ways of character progression and other such things. What it did offer was a rewarding and well thought out combat system. The pacing most of the time is just right. The best part of combat though is that it allows for complex tactics to be developed depending on your class and spec. Every skill is there for a reason. For example, I have noticed throughout WoW's lifetime is that almost all the useless or redundant skills are modified so that they serve a purpose as opposed to being ignored or discarded. There are a good amount of skills for each class, but not a crap ton. Different sorts of opponents require different strategies to be implemented as well as counter-strategies. It makes for a deep and involved game play experience, which is why its probably so popular.

So thusly we come to KW. From what I have gleaned about the game, it will more then fulfill my expectations on many fronts. The only front I am left questioning about is about combat.

I have been waiting for a long time for an good action oriented/twitch based MMO, a long time. The idea of having a more active hand in MMO combat is appealing beyond words. :)

The biggest problem I have run into is balance. The more an RPG focuses on action and fast paced combat the more it seems to lose out tactically deep skills/abilities, and vice versa. So what I would like to see more then anything is a balanced synergy of action/strategy.

[amz181]

Welcome to kaos war claytondora ;) im amz181, the best user you will ever meet...period...

Nice first post :p Im more a FPS person myself so i dont mind forgoing without skills, but that just a difference of opinion.

[ramadog]

well sence we r posting on what we would like to c in game how about an attack unicorn mini-pony? Oooooo a demon attack unicorn mini-pony eff ya. put some black bat wings on that bad boy and there u go 8) yea thats me rama the idea man.

[amz181]

well sence we r posting on what we would like to c in game how about an attack unicorn mini-pony? Oooooo a demon attack unicorn mini-pony eff ya. put some black bat wings on that bad boy and there u go 8) yea thats me rama the idea man.

ZOMG! that is genius, pure genius... I hope your all taking notes... This is gold dust...

[a chewy rock]

I wouldn't expect to see that in the final game ramadog. Although that would be pretty crazy.

[Shiv]

Ramadog stop eating shrooms and watching my little ponies.

[Nurvus]

@claytondora

I'd say that Guild Wars would probably be a game with great strategical value.
The one with the most, possibly.

The one big flaw is that you have no room to change your strategy because you are limited to 8 skills + attack, in any scenario, even though you can freely change them at town.

I too love to see action, but it sure pains me to see reactive strategy thrown away to get it.
It was mentioned this game is aimed at having a playstyle somewhat like God of War, and if it does, it will be great.

Indeed WoW excells at class design, but fails at customizability within the class.
Essentially they just make 3 classes in 1, and deceive new players into thinking there are alot of ways to effectively play that class, when there are 3 roles, within those roles there's a version for PvP and one for PvE, and that's it.

I like how Druid, Shaman, Paladin, Warrior, Rogue and Hunter are quite unique, comparing to any game anywhere, and the Death Knight promisses to bring a new unique class as well.
I predict the Rune System to be some sort of a group of rage bars or something that fill with certain actions and are used independently by certain other actions.

Anyway, they fail when it comes to Group play, since in such scenario, classes cycle through 3-5 skills during a fight.
In PvP, it is not very balanced, but classes show their true gameplay value there.

[Avacon]

also will you incorparate a bounty system into the game.

[jimmy6154]

revenge is sweet, even sweeter when you pay someone else to do it.... hahah

[Avacon]

revenge is sweet, even sweeter when you pay someone else to do it.... hahah
ya and i will be willing to reap the reward of those bounties for ya as long as its not under 1k then i will kill it and/or get killed trying.

[Moloch]

Originally I said ...
I want to be able to make choices, set priorities and to be able to differentiate my character from others - both inter and intra class. I want to be able to play viable rogue builds, accepting that there will be a loss in performance. IMO any system that tries for equal class balance will fail and the rock-paper-scissors class concept is probably superior (although there’s always the PvE v PvP spec question – particularly if raid loot is major source of toon powerups).

But I'm starting to lose enthusiasm with class-based systems. AoC's class balance is atrocious and - of course - I picked 1 of 2 most gimped classes. Before AoC I played as a WoW priest, pre-Ratings and pre-Arena the best gear was from raids and to be raid viable you had to be healing spec. You were pigeonholed and sub-par in small team PvP (and were usually focus fired by burst DPS classes).

I still think that a class-based system is almost impossible to balance - particularly when you don't have cheap mirror imaged classes across races. And so I'm getting all sentimental about a UO-style skill cap, use to improve, lock to leave type system. It allows for significant player flexibility in builds. It makes balancing far easier. It makes rolling alts largely unnecessary (assuming the Devs care about the player's convenience), and builds in a respeccing mechanism that has some cost besides being a value sink.

I have faith that a skill system could be designed around a far more sophisticated system than UOs - perhaps involving pre-reqs or skill trees. It'd certainly be different from EQ, WoW, Vanguard, FF, AoC and WAR.

[Avacon]

i had posted a little earlier in a diffrent thread about this kind of topic
http://www.kaoswar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=872
would this be kinda what your talking about Moloch?

[Moloch]

No mate, your post sounds a bit like stances - which I like and think adds some tactical flexibility if you can stance 'dance' between (say) Defensive and offensive stances (AoC has this system atm). I've also said elsewhere that I'd like to see toons able to switch between a PvP and PvE spec on the fly, including hotbuttons etc.

Something else I'd like to see about resource gathering. AoC has resource 'zones', areas where the vast majority of resources are located, mobs spawn at your level to attack you about 10% of the time while harvesting. Building guild cities requires massive amounts of resources (nodes take quite a while to harvest, have up to 10 resources each, and regenerate slooowly). Quite frankly, its boring as hell.

I'd like to see a system that has auto-producing mines, farms, factories etc of various sizes. These become PvP objectives. You own em, and the resources get delivered direct to your bank (choosable personal or guild). You'd need to have balance this with some individual nodes so that small/weak guilds and solo-ers wouldn't be locked out.

The philosophy behind this is to make the mechanic part of the PvP game - not divorced from it.

And yes, this might not sit well with the PvE crowd. But it may - it's focussed and there is a built in alternative. Besides, my care factor for PvE'ers is low :)

[Rauko]

Are said mines instanced or in the persistent world?

If in the persistent world then you could have NPC guards. It would be unlikely that the owning guild would keep constant guard of it themselves. So that would be the PvE in order to take the mine. Of course, the owning guild could get alerted and run in to help the said NPCs defend and maybe slow them down enough to get enough together to repulse the invaders.

Kind of like how the Players vs. Monsters and Keeps work in LotRO. LotRO's PvM is flawed, but thats a pretty close comparison, it would just be PvE with PvP possibility.

I like the idea though :)

[Avacon]

No mate, your post sounds a bit like stances - which I like and think adds some tactical flexibility if you can stance 'dance' between (say) Defensive and offensive stances (AoC has this system atm). I've also said elsewhere that I'd like to see toons able to switch between a PvP and PvE spec on the fly, including hotbuttons etc.

Something else I'd like to see about resource gathering. AoC has resource 'zones', areas where the vast majority of resources are located, mobs spawn at your level to attack you about 10% of the time while harvesting. Building guild cities requires massive amounts of resources (nodes take quite a while to harvest, have up to 10 resources each, and regenerate slooowly). Quite frankly, its boring as hell.

I'd like to see a system that has auto-producing mines, farms, factories etc of various sizes. These become PvP objectives. You own em, and the resources get delivered direct to your bank (choosable personal or guild). You'd need to have balance this with some individual nodes so that small/weak guilds and solo-ers wouldn't be locked out.

The philosophy behind this is to make the mechanic part of the PvP game - not divorced from it.

And yes, this might not sit well with the PvE crowd. But it may - it's focussed and there is a built in alternative. Besides, my care factor for PvE'ers is low :)
that still pretty close to a stances perspective if you ask me because you still would need hot bottons for those stances and also depending on what kinds of creatures in pve you will be fighting the stances would also work well for them. like lets say you have a offensive monster and he hits hard if your tacking more damage in offensive as well the change tatics or stance to defensive or change to a passive that way you can either better your enemy and over come it. personely though i do both pvp and pve don't matter to me witch one i do more.

also on the line of the hole minning idea since there will be slight modern tech in the game for humans, possible slaves for the demons (or minions), and helpers or pets of the angels (diffrent version of a goody goody slave).
that would work for the minning bit be ale to hire servents to mine for you and i do like the idea of owning the location as well. RF online has a RvRvR minning area where all players from all three factions get to pvp each other for a special minning location which could work in this as well then every 2-4-6 hours you could have a constant event (pvp ofcourse) that races can have the chance to fight each other to get the chance to hold the stock pile of resorces for thier race and in doing so give them something special for a reward of a job well done. that way they would continue to fight also have a pvp ranking system so the more you pvp the more speacilty items you can get. also if you don't like pvp have a specialty pve kind of match up as well like hordes upon hordes of npc's charging your area while you fight through them to get to the main boss for control over that horde location and the hordes themselves so that race can benafit from the work they accoplished. by doing to diffrent style like this then you not only benefit the pvp players but also the non pvp players. it also gives 2 diffrent places to control meaning more combat events to keep player awake and moving so they arn't getting to bored if ya know what i mean.

[ledybug]

I'd really like to see some sort of reward system for helping newbies out. When MMORPGs started, everyone was so nice and didn't mind helping. Now it seems like people are so jaded, they won't waste their precious time answering a newbie's question or showing one a difficult person/place to find on the map. New players shouldn't be tormented and lamented, they should be welcomed. And as devs, new players = more money. So if you could work out a incentative system or something, I think it would keep the game from getting stale later on and attract a steady stream of new blood. People are much more likely to enjoy a game if they know they can find help or at least answers from fellow gamers. Not sure how you would implement such a thing, but I think it would be worth a try. MMORPGS don't have to be such a scary inhospitable place. ;)

[amz181]

I'd really like to see some sort of reward system for helping newbies out. When MMORPGs started, everyone was so nice and didn't mind helping. Now it seems like people are so jaded, they won't waste their precious time answering a newbie's question or showing one a difficult person/place to find on the map. New players shouldn't be tormented and lamented, they should be welcomed. And as devs, new players = more money. So if you could work out a incentative system or something, I think it would keep the game from getting stale later on and attract a steady stream of new blood. People are much more likely to enjoy a game if they know they can find help or at least answers from fellow gamers. Not sure how you would implement such a thing, but I think it would be worth a try. MMORPGS don't have to be such a scary inhospitable place. ;)

it all depends on the community, weve got a pretty nice one here, so i doubt you'll get any sourness from any of us.

A long as the community sands firm, newbies shouldnt have a problem. But if you put this all down the intimidation of joining a new MMO with level 2000s everywhere, i will once again quote runescape for their brilliant ideas.

Runescape, is not only easy to play because theres no download, but the way it introduces the game is excellent. It starts you on a tutorial island, only other people starting will be there, and you go around talking to NPC's who help you out with stuff. Once your done, you'll have a pretty good idea of how to play the game.

Rnuescape futhers this by making newbies start in a newbie town (after the tutorial) so everyone is willing to help everyone, and only the helpful level 2000s are there.

If kaos war incorporated a similar system, i dont see how newbies could be intimidated.

Welcome to kaos war btw ;)

[Bladesofglory]

Kinda posted this another thread i guess i can post this here as well. Would be cool to have something along these lines.

WARNING: If you don't care about game mechanics and such, read no further.

The threat system is unrealistic, and games built around it will always have horrible balance issues. The tank's role in PvE makes them essentially useless against other players, because other players are not retarded AI. A large portion of their ability directed to threat generation just goes out the window.

What I think should replace this is a bit more autonomy; each player should be able to handle his own mob (or multiple mobs) solo in the fashion of his class. Or if grouped, the group should be able to take on 5 or more in one pull by working together. If we were going to make this a fantasy game (since we are all familiar), "in the fashion of his class" would mean the way the class would take on another player in a duel. The skills can all be the same for the classes we know, knights, assassins, rangers, clerics, etc. but the combat would not require that you fight one overly powered mob that could crush anyone but the tank in 4 hits, it would require that you fight multiple mobs that try to find an advantage or take out your group's weakest link.

As long as characters and NPCs can collide with each-other (allowing players to block and form defensive position), each class has some ability to impair the movement of their enemy (stun, snare, bash, charge, blind, etc), and each class has a "disaster control" ability (disappear, shield wall, lay on hands, etc) then anyone is fair game for the AI, because anyone is fair game in a real combat scenario. The NPCs can then feel more intelligent. I mean really, if you've ever fought in PvP, healers are the first target. So how can you respect an AI that doesn't try to win?

This system can work for any type of genre, fps, fanatsy, scifi, etc, and any kind of class you can think of is valid. There is no competition over group spots, it just takes a bit of planning to make the group work (you still have to have a healer most times lol).

Now I know some of you are thinking, "That sounds so unorganized."

My answer is this: Welcome to more realistic combat. The games that most of us have played, and most that are made into MMOs are high fantasy with the same classes reworked over and over. D&D, MUDs, UO, EQ, DAoC, EQII, GW, WoW, LotRO, L1, L2, Diablo, AoC, the list goes on and on. There are other games with other more interesting scenarios, more applications for roles in combat. This system that works with anything beyond this fantasy genre. Want to make the MMOFPSRPG of the future with evolving nanobots fighting? Think up any kind of combat you want and as long every class can affect movement and get out of a sticky situation, it will work. Its actually really simple, not too far from GW combat. It won't really shine until you see more games with roles that haven't been so ingrained into everyone's brains.

Now some of you might be thinking, "What about raid bosses and such? How will this system work with them?" Thats a valid concern. What I think will replace tank and spank as the "standard" raid strategy is some good ol' ancient battle formation; the phalanx. Or at least a defensive line of tanks holding the boss from charging the squishies. The "push" factor will have to be taken into consideration in mechanics (or perhaps tied to some player stat), as well as the range of attacks and whether those attacks can penetrate the defensive line. Many bosses in WoW have a "damage distributing" attack that would kill any player outright, but if two or three tanks are in range of it, the blow is divided among them. This might be a standard attack for many bosses to weaken the defensive line. I would also hope that many raid encounters involve successive waves of mobs and secondary objectives that utilize the skills of the other classes.

Overall I think you'll see I'm not being too creative here. All I said was:

-There should be no threat system
-Players should collide with each-other and NPCs
-Every class should be able to impair movement
-Every class should have a disaster control ability
-Push mechanics (especially for heavy melee — offensive: knockback, kick, bash, & defensive: block, intercept, shield wall etc.)

This shouldn't be too hard. The threat system is the core restriction of skill based play in most MMO games, and the primary reason for the boring repetitive AI.

My two cents

[Damon]

Kinda posted this another thread i guess i can post this here as well. Would be cool to have something along these lines.

WARNING: If you don't care about game mechanics and such, read no further.

The threat system is unrealistic, and games built around it will always have horrible balance issues. The tank's role in PvE makes them essentially useless against other players, because other players are not retarded AI. A large portion of their ability directed to threat generation just goes out the window.

What I think should replace this is a bit more autonomy; each player should be able to handle his own mob (or multiple mobs) solo in the fashion of his class. Or if grouped, the group should be able to take on 5 or more in one pull by working together. If we were going to make this a fantasy game (since we are all familiar), "in the fashion of his class" would mean the way the class would take on another player in a duel. The skills can all be the same for the classes we know, knights, assassins, rangers, clerics, etc. but the combat would not require that you fight one overly powered mob that could crush anyone but the tank in 4 hits, it would require that you fight multiple mobs that try to find an advantage or take out your group's weakest link.

As long as characters and NPCs can collide with each-other (allowing players to block and form defensive position), each class has some ability to impair the movement of their enemy (stun, snare, bash, charge, blind, etc), and each class has a "disaster control" ability (disappear, shield wall, lay on hands, etc) then anyone is fair game for the AI, because anyone is fair game in a real combat scenario. The NPCs can then feel more intelligent. I mean really, if you've ever fought in PvP, healers are the first target. So how can you respect an AI that doesn't try to win?

This system can work for any type of genre, fps, fanatsy, scifi, etc, and any kind of class you can think of is valid. There is no competition over group spots, it just takes a bit of planning to make the group work (you still have to have a healer most times lol).

Now I know some of you are thinking, "That sounds so unorganized."

My answer is this: Welcome to more realistic combat. The games that most of us have played, and most that are made into MMOs are high fantasy with the same classes reworked over and over. D&D, MUDs, UO, EQ, DAoC, EQII, GW, WoW, LotRO, L1, L2, Diablo, AoC, the list goes on and on. There are other games with other more interesting scenarios, more applications for roles in combat. This system that works with anything beyond this fantasy genre. Want to make the MMOFPSRPG of the future with evolving nanobots fighting? Think up any kind of combat you want and as long every class can affect movement and get out of a sticky situation, it will work. Its actually really simple, not too far from GW combat. It won't really shine until you see more games with roles that haven't been so ingrained into everyone's brains.

Now some of you might be thinking, "What about raid bosses and such? How will this system work with them?" Thats a valid concern. What I think will replace tank and spank as the "standard" raid strategy is some good ol' ancient battle formation; the phalanx. Or at least a defensive line of tanks holding the boss from charging the squishies. The "push" factor will have to be taken into consideration in mechanics (or perhaps tied to some player stat), as well as the range of attacks and whether those attacks can penetrate the defensive line. Many bosses in WoW have a "damage distributing" attack that would kill any player outright, but if two or three tanks are in range of it, the blow is divided among them. This might be a standard attack for many bosses to weaken the defensive line. I would also hope that many raid encounters involve successive waves of mobs and secondary objectives that utilize the skills of the other classes.

Overall I think you'll see I'm not being too creative here. All I said was:

-There should be no threat system
-Players should collide with each-other and NPCs
-Every class should be able to impair movement
-Every class should have a disaster control ability
-Push mechanics (especially for heavy melee — offensive: knockback, kick, bash, & defensive: block, intercept, shield wall etc.)

This shouldn't be too hard. The threat system is the core restriction of skill based play in most MMO games, and the primary reason for the boring repetitive AI.

My two cents

Great post Blade. I like where you are going with no threat.

[Bladesofglory]

Another interesting idea would be I saw that each side has emperors or was it only the Al'Gar? but nonetheless to have an election based system to elect the leaders. Or it could be based on the top 10 PvP ranks, so those top 10 people would be automatically or nominated as an emperor and the entire race gets to vote for their choice. A similar system is currently present in RF, i personally think this is quite an ingenious idea. This way you get the entire race basically getting to interact with each other, and gives for a more realistic approach to the game. After all it is an MMORPG.

[Damon]

We have considered player elections.
Algar- Emperor
Deva- Primogen
Human- Signifier

Are the leaders of each faction. We could have revolving elections based on rank to be. Though we have to consider the gameplay ramifications.
Geopolitics at its best!

[amz181]

Another interesting idea would be I saw that each side has emperors or was it only the Al'Gar? but nonetheless to have an election based system to elect the leaders. Or it could be based on the top 10 PvP ranks, so those top 10 people would be automatically or nominated as an emperor and the entire race gets to vote for their choice. A similar system is currently present in RF, i personally think this is quite an ingenious idea. This way you get the entire race basically getting to interact with each other, and gives for a more realistic approach to the game. After all it is an MMORPG.

PvP ranks isnt a good way to elect a leader. ive also played RF and i have to say, most of the leaders are twats, with no initiative whatsoever.

the way i'd prefer it would be race specific governments. done like a council.

[reddo]

-Players should collide with each-other and NPCs

One nostalgic day in GW, I used body blocking to force mobs to attack me rather than my healing henchmen. It's a powerful tactic that has much more skill involved rather than punching threat numbers.

[Bladesofglory]

@ Amz so basically they would have to be elected into the power. Or nominated. I like the idea of a council but doesnt that kinda go against the lore. I mean as Damon posted that each race has its own leader. It would be possible to elect a leader and then a council to aide in decisions.

[amz181]

@ Amz so basically they would have to be elected into the power. Or nominated. I like the idea of a council but doesnt that kinda go against the lore. I mean as Damon posted that each race has its own leader. It would be possible to elect a leader and then a council to aide in decisions.

in my favourite game of all time (its dead now) they had a very good system which was used to rule each faction.

there were several types of government depending on the faction (democracy, dictatorship etc.)

With the demons, i would say yes have a dictatorship, as it fits in with the races ethos.

angels, i could really imagine an "elder council" in which a group of players make decisions. It fits in with the whole lore and seems much more fitting than a form of dictatorship

humans would ofcourse be run by democracy. So say every month, the whole nation has the ability to vote on which human they want to be the next "signifier".

Instead of just having one plain government, this would fit much more and would add a new twist onto choosing a faction, and interfactional interaction.

[Bladesofglory]

That might actually work very well, and again it hasnt been done before.

[Moloch]

The threat system is the core restriction of skill based play in most MMO games, and the primary reason for the boring repetitive AI.

Extremely simplisitic.

In my experience the ‘core restriction’ on skill based play are the players themselves. Frankly, most are not very good.

Other factors include AI and level design, ping and FPS, class balance, mechanic design, player game knowledge, the ability to dual box (particularly with buff or healbotsbots), gear progression and itemization, and communication (Vent etc).

The threat system, when properly coded, provides a dependable framework against which group roles and tactics are used. In military terms, you could call this the equivalent of TTPs. The threat mechanic also provides one means of variation in fights though aggro manipulation (wipes etc) Spawns and pats, environmental damage, multiple boss mobs, AoE, as well as buffs and debuffs, are some of the other ways that PvE can be kept challenging. Blaming lack of PvE variety on the threat mechanic is unjustified. It's many things, but primarily poor design.

Threat is a working mechanic . It's good to think about if its time is done but I don't see any practical idea here for what would provide the basis of your mob AI if not threat? Mobs always target healers and DPS first like in PvP? <shrug> How is that any less predictable than the current system?

As an aside, I am a supporter of CD. But it should not be perma-enabled due to griefing. It should be enabled when entering combat and for all hostile mobs. I'd like to see formation combat enabled but one thing people forget is that the most important element of formation fighting (and often simulated in wargames) is usually morale.

[Moloch]

Another interesting idea would be I saw that each side has emperors or was it only the Al'Gar? but nonetheless to have an election based system to elect the leaders. Or it could be based on the top 10 PvP ranks, so those top 10 people would be automatically or nominated as an emperor and the entire race gets to vote for their choice. A similar system is currently present in RF, i personally think this is quite an ingenious idea. This way you get the entire race basically getting to interact with each other, and gives for a more realistic approach to the game. After all it is an MMORPG.

Imo, the basis of community in a game is the guild. Individual leadership positions (and drama) belong there. The game itself is about the relative achievements of guilds and in game recognition systems (which is what we're talking about) should recognise the group not the individuals. Reward more customers not less.

Being unemployed and able to play 18/7 and be in the 'top 10 people' is no basis for leadership. Similarly, playing a DPS class and therefore being more likely to top PvP 'skill' systems like damage done and kills, is no basis for being put forward as a leader.

And what would the 'elected' leader do? <shrug> Guilds and alliances of guilds are where meaningful decisions (eg. guild and city taxes) are made and should stay.

I'd recommend putting Dev effort into designing a recognition system that rewards relative guild achievements (ie. designs on capes ala Warhammer, access to limited housing locations or types, guild vaults, etc). This system needs to be able to account for guild size.

[Bladesofglory]

You do have a quite a valid point there. Kinda liking your idea of giving the rewards. But if you can somehow incorporate ways for groups and guilds to carry out tactics in dungeons that would be awesome. Not too sure if you guys are wanting to keep the threat system, I would have liked no threat but I guess we will have to see what you guys do.

[Spartan]

I would really like to see an Deva with Crimson Red wings, and Arch Angel. ohh ya, that would be nice.

[Moloch]

WoW's upcoming dual spec system is something that I've been spruiking for a long time.

It allows flexibility for players, particularly for tree based skill systems.

Importantly, for games that mix PvE and PvP aims, it allows players to compete in both without having to respec between game play types.

[Ronin]

I'd like to see variable weapon gripping styles.
*For expample a sword could be held with one hand or two hands, as a 2h it deals more damage per hit than when single handed, meanwhile if there were 2 weapons equipped it they would deal less but you have two weapons to hit with so that balances out.
*Firearms could have a recoil system implemented, someone could dual-wield some mid-sized weapons or use it with two hands with one, this allows the user to suffer from lesser amounts of recoil increasing general accuracy (like in an FPS where the reticle goes off target when you go full auto on a target)
*Also abilities used could have slightly different effects when used with different grip styles. Added effects or debuffs when 2handing or double shot when dual wielding.
Finally some weapon classes should have limits to styles, examples you shouldn't be able to 2h a dagger type weapon, dual wield something similar to a cannon or sniper-rifle, or something like a spear could be used with a shield or 2handed but not dual wielded.
*Models probably could have some scaling depending on its grip as that some of the larger or smaller weapon could look rather ridiculous when used.

[MESS14H]

I'd like to see variable weapon gripping styles.
*For expample a sword could be held with one hand or two hands, as a 2h it deals more damage per hit than when single handed, meanwhile if there were 2 weapons equipped it they would deal less but you have two weapons to hit with so that balances out.
*Firearms could have a recoil system implemented, someone could dual-wield some mid-sized weapons or use it with two hands with one, this allows the user to suffer from lesser amounts of recoil increasing general accuracy (like in an FPS where the reticle goes off target when you go full auto on a target)
*Also abilities used could have slightly different effects when used with different grip styles. Added effects or debuffs when 2handing or double shot when dual wielding.
Finally some weapon classes should have limits to styles, examples you shouldn't be able to 2h a dagger type weapon, dual wield something similar to a cannon or sniper-rifle, or something like a spear could be used with a shield or 2handed but not dual wielded.
*Models probably could have some scaling depending on its grip as that some of the larger or smaller weapon could look rather ridiculous when used.
Awsome idea. Realy hope they do something like this. ;D