About Crafting

[Nurvus]

In WoW, you learn most crafting by just obtaining the required skill and purchasing the recipe.

That is extremely lackluster from both a design and player point of view.

Everyone gets the same recipes... everyone knows everything.
What's the point in having 2 Blacksmiths in a guild, then?

Reputation recipes? Fail.
Grinding recipes? Fail.
Learning that has a time limitation? Imo, success!

WoW has glimpses of working designs and mechanics, but never seem to open their eyes... not enough, anyway.

The daily researching in Alchemy and Inscription, the dailies of Jewelcrafting that grant you Tokens to exchange for recipes... all this hints at what I perceive as one of - if not - the best way(s) to manage crafting: resource researching.

The ideal would be to use resources, to research in a direction.
Research how to make effective spiked plate armor by spending material on the research.
Reaching a certain skill in Armorsmithing shouldn't imply you know how to craft all armor of that skill and below - you choose your path, out of many. You combine concepts into a final knowledge.

This way you can have loads of "masters" in the same crafting profession - each offering completely different kinds of craftsmanship.

You'll see a more variate world, where everyone is excited at the realistic chance of having a character with unique craftsmanship that is likely to please more than many.

Don't get me wrong, you might be able to learn a bit of everything. Learn to craft every kind of melee weapon and plate armor, but to be the best at something, you'd have to make an educated choice - pursue a specialization.
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Additionally, a crafter could have an individual measure of mastery over each kind of material used.

Knowing the essence of the material you work with is halfway to the mastery of your craft.

So a Blacksmith could be the ultimate master of Mithril and be unskilled with Iron or Steel.

<<A bit offtopic, materials don't all have to be sorted out in a gradient of power.
There can be several kinds of metal alloy (mix of metals) and a mix of certain weaker metals can result in an alloy stronger than initially stronger metals.>>

So Blacksmith could have:
- Skills representing mastery of metals, allowing for research of alloys and refining of metals into purer forms.
- Skill representing craftsmanship, the ability to work those metals into effective products, wich may come to be out of the box when it starts delving into ancient/magical/complex works.
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Like I said in a different post, you might also be able to Learn how to craft an item from dismantling it and understanding how it was crafted. You might not get it at the first try, so there would be a chance involved - you could understand somewhere between 0% and 100%, randomized but also linked to your degree of craftsmanship. And if you dismantly more than one of the same item, it adds up.
So you could learn 30% of it at the first time, then the remaining 70% on the second try and you're done.

[SnipingAngel]

I like the way you set it out except for a few aspects. A blacksmith should be able to do anything with the metal of his choice inless it is to complicated. As you gain more experience more alloys open up to you from your base metal and you can do anything with it like repair put socets for gems or something like that on it. Mabey even Make horse shoes for horses IDK. But you get my idea.

[polarisdrivr]

i always liked the eve online skill leveling system where it takes time to learn them although you dont really need to do anything to level them other than click and wait...but apply that to crafting in a way where you choose what stats and type of item you want to create and then it over over a calculated period of time your character is "thinking up a design" after which you get a recipe of an item meeting your stats or close to it. Then as you invent things your crafting skill goes up allowing you to invent better items with better stats and more stats. Also depending on how much you want the item to have it may take a long time to invent it.

[Nurvus]

First, item quality would vary with:
- Material
- Mastery over the material
- Mastery over the recipe

Materials could have several degrees of purity, etc.
You might find Veins with low quality Iron and others with high quality Iron.
You might be able to refine Iron by smelting, mixing and extracting the best Alloy out of it.

Working with the process of refining metal and researching new alloy would increase the quality rate of your alloys.
Working with a Material would improve your proficiency with it, making anything you craft out of it better.
Working with a recipe would improve your proficiency with it, making anything you make out of it better.

Example: You decide to create Spiked Iron Dreadplate

It will improve your skills with both Iron and Spiked Dreaplate.
Later, if you decide to use a different metal with the same recipe, it will already yield better results.
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More in line with the way Kaos War is going to work:
You would have access to X "Active Learning Materials" and Y "Active Learning Works", depending on your rank.
Ranks could go like: Apprentice - Journeyman - Expert - Artisan - Master - Legendary

You'd select X metals for "Active Learning" and can only gain skill with those.
You'd select Y works for "Active Learning" and can only gain skill with those.
If you want to gain skill with others, you must change your "Active Learning".

So you could choose Spiked Iron Armor and work it up to 100% Proficiency.
If you then started working on Reinforced Steel Armor before graduating to Journeyman Blacksmith, you would start losing Proficience with both Iron and Spiked Armor.
If instead you graduated to Journeyman Blacksmith, you'd be able to work on both without losing proficience (assuming it provided access to 2 metals and 2 works).
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Anyway, I am speaking of Spiked and Reinforced but it could go alot more complex than that.

You could create your own brand of equipment by deciding on the balance of stats on it, like more armor but more weight, with a certain design that is more protective (and impeditive) or allowing for better movement, etc.

You could then name your equipment - perhaps Spiked Dreadplate isn't cool, Bunny Soulcage seems prettier.

My whole point being that you should be able to master a good couple of things by sacrificing mastery over others.
Your range of mastery would widen with time (example: ranks) but would eventually reach a limit.

You could still be able to craft absolutely any "recipe/plan/blueprint" you come across, but only have maximum proficiency with a few.

Also, as your Rank rises, your minimum Proficiency with all works might increase.
As a Legendary Blacksmith, you might automatically craft anything you know with a minimum Proficiency of 50%, and a couple of stuff with up to 100% Proficiency.

[SnipingAngel]

Question. Would you be able to master a few in each branch of smithing. Like 2h weapons, 1h weapons, crossbows, and Armour?

[a chewy rock]

Nurvus always comes up with good ideas. I always feel like I'm reading this stuff from a FAQ or something. Good thought and I like the split between material and recipe.

[Cavaliere123]

sounds cool. I'm not much of a crafter in most games, but I'd definitely purchase something called Bunny Soulcage lol.

[polarisdrivr]

haha i hate crafting personally....i just buy it straight up or hope to god i joined a guild with a nice crafter

[SnipingAngel]

Theres a thought lol on the guild board have everyones profections that they have recived Master+ in

[Cavaliere123]

Yeah, but at the same time you don't want to be the mooch of the guild lol. I hate it when people join guilds just for items :/.

[polarisdrivr]

well if it was like a wow guild id wouldnt mooch i just put valuables into the guild bank

[Nurvus]

Question. Would you be able to master a few in each branch of smithing. Like 2h weapons, 1h weapons, crossbows, and Armour?

- You could possibly learn how to craft everything in the game (for your profession).
- You would only be able to "master" a couple of stuff.
- There might be specializations so that you can only get past certain %'s (i.e: 75% for first Specialization, 90% for second). This would mean your limit proficiency at Legendary rank is 75%.

Example: You are a <Legendary> Blacksmith -> Weaponsmith -> Swordsmith.
Legendary Min Proficiency = 25%.
Legendary Max Proficiency = 75%.
Weaponsmith = +15% Min & Max Proficiency with Weapons.
Swordsmith = +10% Min & Max Proficiency with Swords.

Result for a Legendary Swordsmith (wich includes Weaponsmith):
- Non-spec recipes have a 25% Min and 75% Max Proficiency.
- Non-sword Weapon recipes have a 40% Min and 90% Max Proficiency.
- Sword recipes have a 50% Min and 100% Max Proficiency.
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As for how many, it will vary with "what kind" of crafting variety will be available.

I'd say wichever the case, you should have access to mastery over less than 10% of the whole lot of recipes available to your profession - the "less" the better.

Furthermore, all recipes should be good. Maybe some special ones - that are tough to get/research - would be better.
The best ones should definitely be gained by researching some special ones, essentially making sure the "boss drops" and whatnot are always very good, but with them you can learn to make the very best.
This would not lower the value of boss loot, instead it would prevent crafting and boss loot from undermining each other.

As far as predetermined recipes, it would likely have a small limit.
If the Devs would allow players to also create their own "special" recipes - by learning other recipes, gaining knowledge and researching - wich would happen by selecting your personal choice of "proportion" between the various attributes available to an item, then there can theoretically exist an enormous amount of recipes and variety.

Furthermore, I suggested this because I believe it is in line with Kaos War mentality - you use it, you become better at it.

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[Further Suggestion]
You could have CP (Craftsmanship Points)

Each recipe would "occupy" X Craftsmanship Points in order to be selectable as "Active" - so you could gain skill in it by crafting it.

Stronger recipes, etc, would occupy more CP, wich means eventually you could have alot of lesser recipes or a couple greater recipes at 100% proficiency.
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Again, Proficiency with something means better results out of it.

Wich means a Damascus Soul Eater forged out of 100% pure Damascus with 100% proficiency in both Soul Eater (recipe) and Damascus (material) would be the best of the best you could obtain from that combo of recipe + material.

[Seint]

I'm personally still wondering what types of professions will be in Kaos War. Obviously there will be the classic, such as blacksmith and tailor, etc. But what about professions for the elements that are on the world of Kaos & no other? Such as the soul stream.
Aside from that here's what I think should be included in the professions.
-Traditional recipes should be learned from a trainer. After that the recipes should be learned through experience and/or profession quests.
-Nearly everything Nurvus said should be included.
-Specializations are a MUST.
-If you know how to make a piece of armor or a weapon, you should also know how to repair that type of weapon or armor. (if you specialize in blade smithing you should know how to repair swords unless they're beyond your experience. If you're a blade smith and you want to repair a blunt weapon you should still be able to, but not at a nearly as effective rate in comparison to repairing a blade.)
-If a type of "engineering" profession is included in KW, please PLEASE make it useful... WoW's engineering is just terrible. If you're an engineer you should know how to create a vehicle, a gun, devices, explosives (possibly with remote detonators), robots, technological melee weapons, etc, etc, etc.
-There should be a profession to harness the soul stream, allowing that player to imbue armors/weapons with that power. (this could possibly be one of the harder professions to raise since everybody is at war for domination over the stream).
-Certain professions should be available to any player, much like the secondary professions in wow. I personally think any gathering profession should be able to be done by any player on the "the more you use it" system. If a blacksmith needs some leather, he shouldn't have to run around town like a jack#@% asking everybody for some leather (or wasting money on it on the auction). He should be able to go outside, kill something, and skin it. Samething goes for a leatherwork that needs a piece of metal for studs or spikes, he should be able to go out and get the metal.

Those are just a few ideas. I'm sure more will come to me later.

[fauzool]

Yes, I think this is a very good idea. Its always good to have a crafting system so you don't have to kill things all the time :P. The more in depth the crafting is the better I like it :D

[Seint]

Yes, I think this is a very good idea. Its always good to have a crafting system so you don't have to kill things all the time :P. The more in depth the crafting is the better I like it :D

Agreed :). I'm playing Lord of the Rings Online right now and most of the equipment I acquire is through crafting it myself. Not to mention the stuff you make is as good/better than most of the quest rewards. It's as if crafting actually has a purpose...! lol.

[danielto]

so many good topics


all of em shud b added into the game

[MESS14H]

One thing I've Thought about with crafting is just how much a player has to devote to gaining their craft skills. In order to gain some of the specializations that have been mentioned in this thread, It would make sense to have a total skill pool to devote to the progress of your character. for example, a player may have 1000 skill points to progress through. they would then have to decide how much to dedicate to each specific skill line. i.e. 400 in blacksmithing, 300 in weaponsmithing, and 300 in swordsmithing. having 200+ in swordsmithing would make the character a master swordsmith for arguments sake. this character can then make awesome swords for him and his friends/guild mates to use. But then what else can he do, he's got an awesome sword but he can't use it. he could drop 100 points from swordsmithing and increase his melee abilities with the sword. but then when he finds something to hit with his awesome sword he gets hit back and gets pummelled to a bloody pulp with the first hit that comes back his way. So then he drops another 100 points from weaponsmithing and adds it to his armouring skill so he can were some nice shinny armour his mate made for him. But he then finds he still gets shived by those sneaky rouge's that he just doesn't manage to see until its too late. So he then has no choice other than to drop another 100 points from swordsmithing which looses he master status in swordsmithing and put it into his awareness skill so he can now head out into the world and find some deep dark enemy infested cave to go mine his rare ore in. The solution to this is probably to make an alt to go and bash things with and farm some resources with swell. This has a flaw in it however. When you give anyone the untrained/unskilled ability to farm recourses you lose the players niche ability to gather those resources. Players that then need those recourses but are at the whims of those who can acquire them end up paying inflated prices for them. It would maybe be an idea to specialize the abilities to farm/mine/gather these abilities as well so that those that dedicate the time and effort to be a miner would be able to gain specialist ranks as well. Maybe a master surveyor or beast master (farmer). I know what your thinking, its more skill points that a player has to dedicate to being able to function as a crafter in the gaming world. It could be left like this and left for the palyer to make an alt but another way to approach this issue is to take a leaf out of Soney's book. with Vanguard and EQ2 they have separate classes for adventuring and tradeskilling that a player progresses through. These could be represented as separate skill pools for crafting, gathering, and adventuring ect. Its just an idea and it seems to be a good way to allow a player to focus on their character rather than have to create several different alts that is just a function that best serves the traditional experience/level based MMO where you might want to make several alts to experience the various different predefined classes.

[Aree]

How many parts would there be in crafting? Lets take the weapon.

Sword: Hilt, Pommel, Guard, and Blade.

Do you make the hilt out of wood, metal or some type of rock? Each would affect how it looked in the end plus you buy, find or earn hilt designs.

The same could be said for the base, do you make it big and round with a socket for a jewel or rune powerd by stream?

The blade. Straight and short? Broad, wide and curving like a scimitar? Made from iron? Mythril? Or do you have a friend who has worked and worked on stream to make you a blade of pure energy.

Whips, Mace, Flails, Axes, Lances (for mounted), spears, Bows, Arrows (head, haft, fletching).

They all have thier parts. Armor even more so. Do you make each piece seperate, combining them or mismatching them or do you design a full body suit. From footgear to helm that when worn covers the entire body.

Seperate pieces at just that, seperate. There are gaps so fire can burn around the gaps but a full suit, totally enclosed will offer some protection that piece by piece won't.

What if they deside to add player housing. Woodworking for making chairs? Tables, carpets, tapestries, statues and art. A weaponstand where your prize pieces of gear are set on display?

Crafting, if done right, could enrich the playing experiance in ways that preset and unchanging gear/loot just doesn't bring across.

What about special crafting skills? Smithing weapons. There's the normal type of banging on a sword into a shape. But what about metal folding for those legendary katanas that are told of in stories and collected in the real world even now? Or the Damascus swords made in europe and even know scientists are unable to figure out how they were made. Unlike our world Kaos has the Stream.. what types of crafting techniques could be made. The mind boggles just thinking about it all.


(definately too much coffee today)