honor system

[eniac]

i am wondering if there is gone be a honer system like in wow.... cause i think that is wrong it just gives people the idea that pvp is grinding and it should be fun :)

hope to see a reaction soon

[Zell]

Let's definitely not have one of those :-P Nobody likes dishonorable kills. I'd like to see a mission system where you will get items for doing PvP missions and killing specific people in the area that are your level.

[Soliptic]

i am wondering if there is gone be a honer system like in wow.... cause i think that is wrong it just gives people the idea that pvp is grinding and it should be fun :)

hope to see a reaction soon


Let me put it this way: In World of Warcraft, clearly PvP was not a top priority for the developers while the game was in the early stages. They were focused on what many argued was the core MMO gamer: PvE Raid type EQ players. Nobody seemed to realize that the #1 online game was a very tightly structured and rigidly balanced team PvP game: Counterstrike. We understand that all too well. Our prioroty for PvP is, above anything else, something that is FUN. Personally, I don't really find the honor grind in WoW to be all that fun. You can be assured that when Kaos War is released, you won't have to wait twelve patches for some fun PvP. In fact, you won't have to wait even one patch. That's because our PvP will kick ass out of the gate.

Sol

[eniac]

counterstrike i won't give any comments cause i wont wanne insult people but lets just play i love battlefield 2 alot more than cs:source

[Moloch]

i am wondering if there is gone be a honer system like in wow

I agree that the WoW Honour system is just a grind to gain access to loot. The ultimate insult is that you're actually competing against your own side for ranks. I believe that a recognition system for PvP accomplishments is a positive - if nothing else it gives public boards spice. But I also believe that there needs to be recognition of Guild V Guild status and/or Realm V Realm status. Personally I prefer a system where there are in-game PvP 'goals' to be accomplished, these confer in game advantages (a careful balancing issue so that success isn't self-reinforcing through boni) and that those advantages should be obvious and therefore speak for themselves.

Nobody likes dishonorable kills.
<shrug> In the WoW context, perhaps. Although before it came with the CP penalty there was a race on my server to see who could get to 1000 DHKs first. Regardless, being a red in UO was a challenge and a play style for some.

[deghost]

Naw don't need no goal :)
Need some mindless shooting.
I like doing that sometime in natural selection :)

[eniac]

just take a look at neocron outposts. there you could controll places on the world map that gave you acces to grinding places labs (boost youre research skill) factory (boost youre construction skills) and mines (gave youre clan a money reward every hour you own it)

this is one of the best pvp challenges i seen you got like gaint battles with tanks and aircrafts there compleet chaos combined with tactics. maybe some of the crew played it and they know what i am talking about

[Robert_Lewis]

just take a look at neocron ..... maybe some of the crew played it and they know what i am talking about


muahahahaha Neocron... hey Loren, does Neocron ring a bell? :P

[eniac]

do not forget its more than 5 years old :) so back than it was cool :)

[jiisu]

Speaking of dishonorable kills... we have something VERY interesting for people to look foward too in that respect. And thats ALL I'm saying.

[Speaker]

I think it's important to remember, however, that while CS may have been very popular, it is also nothing like an MMO in any respect. Certainly any game, we can use WoW as an example, could have a sub-game within it that would allow for a true FPS play, to match CS or DoD it would need to always level the playing field every session. This is the most fundimental distinction between the two. Imagine if when you entered a BG, you were naked and could spend a small amount of free money on an extremely limited set of gear. Ohh, and everyone was a warrior too. Also, only one life to ensure the games were short. That's CS. To incorporate DoD instead you can choose any class, but you're otherwise wearing base armor no changes. You can keep coming back every 15 seconds are are killed in between 1 and 7 hits -- elimination never being an objective. Again, absolutely nothing like an MMO. Although this may appeal to some, I'm betting 6.7 million WoW players can go play CS or DoD for a little while and get that thrill.

PvP in an MMO is difficult because it's impossible to keep eveyone happy. Those who are very successful at it want to get better gear as a reward and take it back to the matches to play more. Ironically, these are the people who do not need the help from better gear and so while they were already "more skilled" at winning PvP, they now have an even bigger edge over those who are learning. In turn, if a player is new and they enter a match and get completely steamrollered because the other players not only have the practice and skill, but also because they have a "faster/low latency" connection as well as having far suprior gear, then why should that new player come back? There really is nothign more exciting then being able to solo high level named PvE content through skillful play and careful planning and then being 2 shotted by a 'Bluekillerkeke' the pvp-epic toon -- well, fun for one of them anyhow.

Ultimately any truely successful game needs to encompass the casual player in a way that they do not feel like there is nothing they can't accomplish. WoW has done a great job of keeping casual players because of it's fast paced play and the ability to play for short periods and actually accomplish something. PvP is no different. The PvPers complain because PvP by it's nature an instant gratification game (boom headshot anyone?) yet WoW's implementation takes time to truely accomplish something. In turn the casual players complain because they can't dedicate the time to gain enough ranks to use it as a method to reach high end gear. Further they walk into a BG and get absolutely squashed by a team of high end players. (Why are top end PvP set/tier 2+ 60s even in the same BG as green/blue level 60s?)

I think havin PvP part of the initial design is a key to success, however if PvP is intended to have a path to success similiar to questing and PvE raiding, then there must be a way for casual players to reach this goal. If not, then you're trading them off for the hardcore PvPers. Further, if PvP is mandetory for completion of a character, then you're going to toss out some players completely. I know I do not want to have to enter into 'bluewallrovia' to reach 'ganktown ruins' so I can kill 'somemob' and loot his 'necktie of power' if it means I have to endure being ganked every time I rez. In fact, this kind of sink is exactly what will make people quite entirely. (hopelessness is bad for the MMO business IMO.)

PvP design is a task I do not envy in any MMO.

[a chewy rock]

You have a lot of good points in that first post of yours.

[Soliptic]

Re: Speaker's Post

You bring up good points and constructed a well written post. Karma for you sir.

I mentioned Counterstrike in the context of refuting Blizzard's assumption that the majority of online gamers want PvE. The overwhelming majority of online video game play revolves around player versus player conflict. Be it shoooting someone in the head, playing a game of football, or something like poker. The simple truth is that conflict and competition are hard wired into our brains, and some people compete in different ways and use different methods. For some people, they want instant gratification ("BOOM Headshot") while others may be content to pitch a tent and wait for someone to walk by ("OMG Camper!"). PvP in an MMO is difficult because in order to achieve balance, some class is always going to be strong versus another class and weak against another. It's the rock, paper, scissors model. Most MMOs that have PvP go this route, the problem is that you run into this: "I am rock. Scissors is balanced, nerf paper." People hate to lose, and most people simply aren't prepared to deal with loosing in their recreational endevour (the MMO that they are paying monthly to play). We want PvP in Kaos War to not break people's will to fight on, but rather to bolster their resolve. When you get killed by someone, we don't want you to feel defeated and lose hope, we want you to get back up and go after that guy who just killed you. As we develop KW and look at the design and eventually get into playtesting, our #1 PvP focus is to make sure people don't get demoralized and lose hope, but rather get angry and fight back.

[Damon]

Coming from a massive PvP background just want to say it is a priority for us.

[Speaker]

Thank you for the kind words. I suppose part of the reason I posted at all, aside from feeling like the developers here are still very open to ideas and commentary, even if from one as unlearned abotu Kaos War as I am, is that I am always concerned when a game I might find myself playing may incorporate (or fail to) some aspect that would instantly rule it out for me. Having been a long time reader of the FoH boards (and occational poster) I have often been on the "wrong side" of the debate when it came ot how game mechanics in EQ and WoW "should" be. The reason is simply because the FoH boards have always attracted power players from both PvP and Hardcore Raiding camps. I, on the other hand, and a casual player (didnt' used to be), and a RPer.

My single and deepest fear is that any game will ultimately be predicated on imbalance. Classes may be balanced, but the moment you throw gear in, it becomes imbalanced. Not because one class's equivelent gear is somehow unequal, but rather because one person may have it and another may not. Again I reference the 60 BGs. I know die hard PvPers who, on the occation a certain PvP-Guild from horde enter a BG, just walk to the water and fish. It lowers the other team's ability to farm honor on them, without hitting them with a deserter tag. This isn't a class imbalance thing, it's a gear thing. The epics have no place against an all green crew. This single issue would need to be addressed even if the classes were balanced.

My second fear is more about being unable to play the whole game becaue of PvP. This is a game-killer for me, and a lot of people I know. Simply put, if I have objectives to finish a quest and I can't because of PKers or griefers, I just quit. I dont pay $15 a month to have someone else make m game unenjoyable. I think the concept of a BG system is decent, Blizzards implementation in WoW is just weak.

Also, I did a little research, and while CS may be (have been?) the #1 FPS by a large margin, it still looked like it barely made over a couple hundred thousand active players -- if even that many. This compared to 6.7 million in WoW now. I certainly didn't find anything difinitive, but it seems to be reasonably accurate. I will say that There have been PvP centered games in the MMO universe and none were even close to WoW in terms of player base, subs, or longevity.

All that said, I am excited to hear about how Kaos War shapes up for PvP. So many lessons to be learned from prior failures in other MMOs means this has to be better. : )

[Damon]

If there was a center for the MMO universe, the FOH boards would be it. Any developer who does not frequent that board misses out big time.
You have to wonder why Smedly from SOE, and Aradune Brad post there.
The opinion of your game on that board can basically be attributed to your success or failure. The posters there are ruthless in their criticisms and hold you as the developer accountable. Things like "Too Brown" and lack of art direction should ring a bell with other developers. If you implement a feature and it looks stupid to the posters there, it probably is pretty stupid. With that being said, you shouldn’t design your game around it, just stay keen to opinions from your potential players as you go along.

[Moloch]

Speaker puts forward the PvE perspective ...

My second fear is more about being unable to play the whole game becaue of PvP. This is a game-killer for me, and a lot of people I know. Simply put, if I have objectives to finish a quest and I can't because of PKers or griefers, I just quit.

<shrug> I acknowledge the PvE player, but I don't understand that philosophy. My opinion is that other players offer the challenge, the unpredictability, and the social drama (possibly only through a game's boards) that make a game fulfilling. PvE content - including 'interesting' WoW Boss kills like C'thun, Noth and GWF - essentially involve cracking a code. Once you have raid balance, aggro management, DPS strategy, and positioning worked out and practiced it quickly becomes boring. PvP offers an evolving challenge and thrill - if the Devs deisgn a purpose into it and you - the player - persevere.

Classes may be balanced, but the moment you throw gear in, it becomes imbalanced. Not because one class's equivelent gear is somehow unequal, but rather because one person may have it and another may not.

You can solve this to a certain extent with a rock-paper-scissor design. Class A will almost almost beat Class B who, in turn, will almost always beat Class C etc.

You can solve this fairly comprehensively with a Shadowbane-type approach to loot. It's not so much dropped as manufactured. Everyone (theoretically) has access. The issue is that a game deisgn like this removes the EQ loot raid/D2 MF factor that makes a game 'sticky' for a lot of players. If you remove a large portion of the loot search in play you have to replace it with something else.

... epics have no place against an all green crew. This single issue would need to be addressed even if the classes were balanced.

Sounds to me like a vote for my idea of tiered, performance based servers where guilds/errants gain promotion and associated bragging rights by being 'promoted' or 'demoted' onto different servers to match their skill level.

Possibly - if there is some sort of race based war to fight - KW could consider a way to incorporate PvE and PvP objectives which count equally towards deciding victory, defeat or stalemate.

[Speaker]

I firmly believe, and I believe the gaming statistics agree with me, that the lionshare of the gaming market is casual PvE players. This is what lead EQ to failure ultiately, and WoW to success. Placate the squeeky wheels with what they need to stay minimally satisfied and drive you're product to be one everyone else wants is a path to a broad audience. EQ went the opposite way, they placated the broad audience minimally, and drive the hardcore raiding market.

Damon: FoH is dead center for anyone who's serious about their games, and especially Hardcore players in MMOs. But they've never been on the mark for casual players. Certainly for artwork and other media you'll get great feedback from them, but with content it will miss some marks. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in terms of game design If you're trying to fill the casual void, you're not going to get much from them IMHO.

Moloch: Indeed the PvE perspective. I do PvP, and have fun with it though, but I hate it anytime the game is seriously stacked against me and in PvP it takes one player. Example: Back in the EQ days, I decided to make a character on a Zek server to play with when I'm in the mood for a little PvP. Even went the most unplayed race/class, Erudite SK for a challange. Started him out, got him decent gear from the warrens, all the good stuff. When I'm about ready to move on, I zone out and a DE with some pretty damn shiny stuff is already attacking me. I fight back and start to use all my skills and tricks as a SK to beat him only to find he's regenerating damage near as fast as I can do it. After about 15 extremely unfun minutes I finially beat him because my Harm Touch recycles and he has the audacity to bitch me out for using HT. A few days later I'm finially ready to move that char to another zone and it happens again except this time it's someone else with a freeking fungi. Another extremely frustraiting battle (every time he was about to loose, he could run off and regen to full health in less than a minute). Both of these guys were griefers, and the result of them I think the next time I played that character was a few months later. Had I first learned EQ that way I would have quit for good.

If a game isn't inherantly fair, why play? Why goto a fight where the best you have is harsh words and they have a shotgun -- and every time they beat you they get even better? Keep in mind, it only takes one person to ruin it for a lot so keeping open the possibility for this to happen means some jackarse is going to do it.

Gear imbalance can be insurmountable. I play both a rogue and a priest. Both decently geared, the rogue is extremely high DPS. Even when I attend a Raid with higher guilds to MC I out DPS everyone else, some rogues and mages by a long shot. BGs I enter where everyone else is similiarly geared I do fine and even hold that edge over casters and melee I can get the jump on. Next BG enter an epic team and even the priests can 2 shot me where I can barely dent them. When I know this team is chewing up BGs and just earning honor from me, I stop Queueing up -- I would rather solo level 57-60 elites (this should be telling in itself how out of balance it can be) for cash then fight a hopeless battle. Worse when every fight I get /spit on, /laugh'd at, etc... (I'm so glad ignore works on horde.) The *only* fixs for this is either separate based on gear, or else to offer the same gear to everyone by some means. WoW has completely failed this by making high end gear only available to people willing to "uber raid" or else put fourth massive hours PvPing. Even then, as long as someone is willing to put in more, they can lock out the very best stuff. (This has been happing on my server for months actually. One guy literally plays 18+ hours a day PvPing as much as possible. He's been top rank for near half a year now and not one alliance has been able to get that gear since.)

[jiisu]

Speaker, I am well aware of your grievance of griefing. I experienced it in every MMO that I've played and it is dastardly. Some players swear by griefing. Those players are usually very hardcore and spend alot of time to gain the glory, or infamy, that their griefing deserves. This is an inevitability that cannot be stopped without making griefing a horrid act to commit within the game with harsh punishment to follow.

We, however, have a different stance. People play how they play. If you dont let them play their style, they dont like your game and go somewhere else. And I'm not just talking about griefers. Some players are strict ranged players, others are casters, and still others are strict crafters. If you dont try to meet most of them half way, or full way, you hurt yourself in the end.

Your comment on gear is a good one. Players with mad loot and mad experience usually have mad gear. Thats unfair to a new to moderately new player. Take this into account though: Kaos War is not a traditional MMO title. That is to say, our combat system is based largely on how skilled you are and not how quickly you can mash on your number keys for a sequence of 1-2 punches for a KO. Rest assured that if you were so inclined to be a skilled player and a not so skilled player with better gear attacked you... that gear is just fluff if you cant utilize your avatar's skills. In short, gear is nice, but it isnt everything.

Your worry about the multi-teired unbalanced honor system of WoW is a valid one. Our pvp system has a unique way to deal with loot and such. It is vastly different than WoWs honor system.


We are trying our best to meet all the niche groups out there with out engaging pvp, our ever so interesting crafting, our useful skills, and much more things that I cant discuss because they arent related to most MMOs out there. I feel that we will meet your needs as well as others because, to put it simply, we listen to you. Go... tell your friends. Tell everyone you know that plays PC games and Console games alike. There is a Dev Team out there that isnt going to ignore every post you guys make. We listen to you because you are just like us. You're, and I use 'you' generally, for the most part dissatisfied with what you're playing. We are aiming for the least common denominator and the highest common denominator. The rich and the poor. The noobs and the 1337 haxorz. We want all of you to come here and tell us what sucks and what rules. I dont mean to say that every suggestion that comes across our monitors will make it into the game and I'm not saying that we're only going to design it around the ideas you give us. What we will do is listen... which is more than most gamers can ask for these days.

With that said... let the Legion grow! =D

[disgruntaledshaman]

i am wondering if there is gone be a honer system like in wow.... cause i think that is wrong it just gives people the idea that pvp is grinding and it should be fun :)

hope to see a reaction soon


Let me put it this way: In World of Warcraft, clearly PvP was not a top priority for the developers while the game was in the early stages. They were focused on what many argued was the core MMO gamer: PvE Raid type EQ players. Nobody seemed to realize that the #1 online game was a very tightly structured and rigidly balanced team PvP game: Counterstrike. We understand that all too well. Our prioroty for PvP is, above anything else, something that is FUN. Personally, I don't really find the honor grind in WoW to be all that fun. You can be assured that when Kaos War is released, you won't have to wait twelve patches for some fun PvP. In fact, you won't have to wait even one patch. That's because our PvP will kick ass out of the gate.

Sol



I am now even MORE pumped than I was when I heard about this game!!! The three month grind to high warlord took all the fun out of pvp for me :'( .
What I'd personally like to see is more world pvp with objectives in certain areas for control of that particular zone. The possibility of leveling through pvp play would also be a wonderful idea to implement as well , having pve quests in non-battlefield areas for those who enjoy that aspect of gaming more. Just my two cents :)

[MONSTERKILL]

about massive PvP try get example for Knight Online good PvP and not in WoW.. WoW is a suck game whit very high propagande... alot of server whit low ppl.. is shit... PvE is shit... go play solo some game rol... when u said MMORPG u want will the best.. and u want kill everyone person for try feel the best in game... 1 game whitout PvP isnt a mmorpg.. if u want see some good PvP see the Knight Online whit bad grapic.. i hope this game will be got awesome PvP and exellent grapic..